Friday, July 20, 2007

Zeitgeist Movie: Is Christianity a Recycled Version of other Pagan Myths?

***UPDATED BELOW***

This site is usually devoted to serious academic issues. But I've been hearing a lot lately about the claims made in a recent movie called Zeitgeist (2007) and I feel like I've got to deal with some of the issues here.

You can watch pieces of it on youtube.com, part one starts here. The movie "demonstrates" how Christianity is merely a recycled version of pagan myths about ancient deities such as the Egyptian god Horus. (It goes on to argue in the subsequent part of the film that the events of September 11th, unfolded as part of a massive government conspiracy.) This is not a political blog, so, of course, I'm only going to deal with the section on religion here.

I've been getting emails about this--here's one example:

...My friend asked me to look at this video, he stopped practicing Christianity because of it.

It claims that Jesus never existed but rather He was made up for political reasons; to control the population.

It relates the life of Jesus with other "gods", and that the Bible is more astrological than anything else.

What do you think of all the claims in it?

Below is my response. But for more reading on this topic I want to encourage anyone dealing with this stuff to check out this site which is full of great articles on the topic.

By the way, if it sounds like I'm a little upset, I am! I can't believe how disingenuous people can be. And I'm deeply saddened that people are falling for it.
_______________________________________

I don't know where to start: this video is a complete lie.

First off, the video is full of misinformation about Horus. He was baptized? Oh really! I would love to see a source for that!

Most of the supposed parallels are completely untrue!

Actually, Muslim apologists have been trying to do this for centuries--to say that Christianity is really just another form of paganism. But that's a lie.

Most of the information in this video seems to come from Acharya S's book, The Christ Conspiracy (1999), which is a sensationalist book which has zero academic credibility. If you want to learn about Horus you can read the ancient myths about him--
Egyptian Mythology: Horus
Encyclopedia Mythica: Horus
The Eye Of Horus
Tektonics: Horus, Isis, Osiris

Let's go over just some of the data:

1. Horus was not born of a Virgin--that's a lie.
2. Horus was not baptized. That's a complete fabrication. "Anup the Baptizer"?--show me where you find that! That's a lie.
3. Horus never walked on water. He performed miracles, but raising the dead and walking on water were not among them. Nor did he cast out demons.
4. Horus had disciples--but you can't show me a single reference to his having twelve. That's a lie.
5. Horus never taught in the temple at age 12. That's a lie. Read the accounts above--it's not there.
6. Where was ever said that was Horus crucified? That's a lie! He died in a later version of the story and was brought back to life--but Jesus' "resurrection" was more than a mere coming back to life. His body was transformed and changed. Anyways, it was only later added to the Horus legend.

That's just off the top of my head. That should give you some indication though about the reliability of this film. In short, its claims are lies that are told to sell books. But no scholar in the world would accept this stuff--only the ignorant. Anybody can get a book published or a video made and say whatever they want. That doesn't make it true.

Moreover, to think that Jesus didn't exist is absolutely, positively unfounded, unhistorical, and unrealistic.

Those who opposed Chrstianity from the very beginning never asserted that Jesus didn't exist--in fact, they made all kinds of slanderous claims against Jesus. But they never asserted he was a myth.

In fact, there's more evidence Jesus existed than virtually any one else in antiquity.

... and there isn't a single respectable scholar today--Christian or secular--who would make such a claim. Only those who haven't studied the issue seriously could say such a thing.

Hope that helps...

***UPDATE***

I just want to add a few things here to address some of the comments made below.

One person--who safely posted anonymously--makes the claim that my own sources refute me. They post the supposed parallels from the article [Tektonics: Horus, Isis, Osiris], which first lists the "claims"... then refutes them. The "anonymous" poster didn't finish the article! This of course highlights the kind of ignorance of and/or misrespresentation of sources we're dealing with here.

Secondly, another person explained that the sources for the movie have been posted on-line. Follow the link and--what a shocker!--the primary source for the movie's claims about Jesus and Christianity is said to be Acharya S's book, The Christ Conspiracy (1999). Again, this book is NOT an academic work and has ZERO credibility. According to this very site, one of S's sources is said to be John Allegro--a man whose work has frequently been condemned by scholars.

For example, when John Allegro attempted to publish a translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, fourteen Oxford scholars wrote to the publisher and demanded it be pulled--it was an absolutely inaccurate translation! The book was pulled and the publisher even apologized! A critique was written by John Strugnell, which meticulously revealed in a line-by-line treatment the errors and which was longer than Allegro's book itself! [See "Notes en marge du volume V des 'Discoveries in the Judaean Desert of Jordon'" in Revue de Qumran 7 (1963): 163-76. For more on the debacle see, James VanderKam and Peter Flint, The Meaning of the Dead See Scrolls (San Francisco: HaperCollins, 2002), 381-403.]

The fact is, no scholar takes Allegro's work seriously. You will only see his name mentioned in academic journals such as the Journal for the Historical Jesus (not a particularly conservative journal!) in articles listing the most outrageous examples of poor scholarship.

Of course, you won't find scholars quoting from S's book either.

Again, read the ancient sources themselves and see what they say about Horus--he was not baptized, crucified, etc. It may sell movies and it may appeal to those who already want to dismiss Christianity, but the Jesus-Horus comparison has really no academic value whatsoever.

196 comments:

Josh McManaway said...

What I've always found funny is the usage of Tertullian and Justin Martyr to prove that Christ came from Mithraism. I'll start by saying that we have no records of Mithraism pre-dating Christianity that contain the similarities between Mithra and Christ, they all come after Christ (go figure...a Pagan group was willing to adopt the beliefs of another system). But, at any rate, both Justin and Tertullian are trying to show the pagans how much alike Christ is to these myths. The pagans then didn't see the connection!! If these stories were so well-known, why in the world did Justin and Tertullian both have to work uphill in order to convince the pagans that Christ was the true fulfillment of these stories?

My idea is that Mithraism borrowed ideas from the Egyptian stories (as it was a military cult and the Roman military would've had troops there). They began to develop their own ideas about Mithra, etc etc, heard about Christ, began to adapt some of their beliefs according to Christ. If the beliefs that supposedly parallel Horus and Mithra were so well-known, again...why would Tertullian and Justin have to fight so hard to get people to see the similarities?

Also, to imagine that 1st Century Palestinian Jews who were quite proud of their culture, heritage and religion would suddenly adopt wholesale the religious ideology of those they considered pagans is really out there. I've never seen anyone write anything compelling to explain this motive.

Scott Ferguson said...

Man, you lost me when you linked to John Patrick Holding

Scott Ferguson said...

That would be James Patrick Holding

Steven Carr said...

How many parallels were there between John the Baptist and Elijah?

micahd said...

So there may be good reasons to dispute the idea that the myth of Jesus plagiarizes earlier myths but they are not presented here. Nor are they presented on the site the author links to ...

As for what is presented here ...

First, we get appeals to authority: "no SCHOLAR says this," "you can't trust a video." Okay, well, you can't necessarily trust scholars OR videos but either might be correct. (Trust me, bro, I'm a PhD student too, or, rather, don't trust me because I'm a PhD student.) Regardless, the appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, not a valid argument. And anyway, the idea that the Christian religion is an amalgam of other spiritual traditions is well-documented and supported by any number of scholars. We know with almost complete certainty, for example, that Constantine purposely changed the date of Jesus' birthday to coincide with the "pagan" festivals associated with the winter solstice. If we don't know that, then more or less the whole project of history before the modern era is probably invalid.

Second, we get a series of claims that because the summarized online versions of the Horus myth that the author links to do not include the details included in the movie, the details in the movie must be LIES! Huh? How does that work?

Third, we hear about how "Muslim apologists" have been making this case for centuries, hence it cannot be true. Which would be the equivalent of saying, Christian bloggers have been making a claim for months, it cannot be true. You can draw your own conclusions on that one.

But furthermore, and more disturbingly, this sort of usvsthemism is illustrative of the exact dynamic that this film points out. That's great, Michael, that's exactly what the world needs ... more religious conflict!

Hey, Zeitgeist presents one well-researched perspective in a rather compelling way, not that I'm compelled by all of it. Believe it or don't. Do your own research. But certainly don't take what this blog has to say about it very seriously.

maureen said...

I actually enjoy stuff like this.
I particularly liked the way one could interpret astronomical data as a metaphor supportive of Christ's Dominion. Even the stars sing his praise!
Anyway, years ago, I did my own research on all of this stuff. Used to be very into the new age and paganism. As a new ager, I collected all kinds of myths and incorporated them into my own version of truth. Based on this approach, the only myth that would not settle easily into my paradigm was the "Jesus Myth"
T think that anyone who is serious about mythology is forced to recognize that you can hold any and all other myths to be true OR you can accept the "Jesus Myth".
There is an exclusivity to the story of Jesus that forces one to an either/or position. I recognized this long before moving into a Catholic world view. To be honest, it was this exclusivity that kept me away from adopting any elements of Christianity into my world view. I had spent a great deal of effort on creating my personal spirituality and I just wasn't willing to give it up no matter how much the "Jesus Myth" appealed to me.
My adoption of Catholicism followed a very different path. It was based on moral understanding rather than spiritual hunger. (I was spiritually/emotionally quite content in my paganism).

Oh and by the way, from either the pagan or the Catholic perspective the video is full of misinformation
Pagan mythology is so much more interesting than a simple pre-figuration of Christ.

micahd said...

Maureen:

What makes the exclusivity of the Jesus myth unique to Jesus? Don't you imagine that the priests of all of those other gods with similar stories demanded exclusive worship of their God?

Also, the movie is not saying that all that there is to paganism is a prefiguration of Jesus. It is saying that Jesus shares similar qualities with many of these previous spiritual traditions which suggests that much of what we believe is Christianity today is actually an amalgam of other religions that has nothing to do with Jesus if he existed. See my comment about the date of Christmas above.

Well, yes, saying that all of the stars sing Jesus' praise would be one interpretation. Another much simpler one would be that there is one true light (perhaps merely the sun, perhaps much more) and that the Jesus myth is a reflection of that light. Why believe the former rather than the latter?

Peace,
Micah

micahd said...

Here's another exchange on Horus and Jesus for anyone who's interested:

http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJesusandHorus74.htm

See if you are convinced. The website, by the way, purports to debunk the connection.

The Nick said...

Sorry for the anonymous comment. Couldn't figure out how to post.

The "Jesus Myth" myth is an interesting phenomena resulting from fallacies such as cross-referenced vocabulary, picking and choosing of composite looks of different versions of a myth or of a composite of different myths.

Adolf von Harnack, a liberal German historian of early Christianity during the first three decades of the twentieth century: "We must reject the comparative mythology which finds a causal connection between everything and everything else... By such methods one can turn Christ into a sun god in the twinkling of an eye, or one can bring up the legends attending the birth of every conceivable god, or one can cathc all sorts of mythological doves to keep company with the baptismal dove... the wand of 'comparative religion' triumphantly eliminate(s) every spontaneous trait in any religion."

Horus becomes a conglomeration within the Osiris/Isis myth as either Osiris' son, resurrected self, etc. On the Osiris myth (at least on version of it) and it's comparison to Christianity, Ronald Nash wrote in "Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions?":
The basic myth of the Isis cult concerned Osiris [Horus’ father/pre-resurrected self, depending on which version of the story you decide to read], her husband during the earlier Egyptian and nonmystery stage of the religion. According to the most common version of the myth, Osiris was murdered by his brother who then sank the coffin containing Osiris’s body into the Nile river. Isis discovered the body and returned it to Egypt. But her brother-in-law once again gained access to the body, this time dismembering it into fourteen pieces which he scattered widely. Following a long search, Isis recovered each part of the body. It is at this point that the language used to describe what followed is crucial. Sometimes those telling the story are satisfied to say that Osiris came back to life, even though such language claims far more than the myth allows. Some writers go even further and refer to the alleged “resurrection” of Osiris. One liberal scholar illustrates how biased some writers are when they describe the pagan myth in Christian language: “The dead body of Osiris floated in the Nile and he returned to life, this being accomplished by a baptism in the waters of the Nile.”

The biased and sloppy use of language suggests three misleading analogies between Osiris and Christ: (1) a savior god dies and (20 then experiences a resurrection accompanied by (3) water baptism. But the alleged similarities, as well as the language used to describe them, turn out to be fabrications of the modern scholar and are not part of the original myth. Comparisons between the resurrection of Jesus and the resuscitation of Osiris are greatly exaggerated. Not every version of the myth has Osiris returning to life; in some he simply becomes king of the underworld. Equally far-fetched are attempts to find an analogue of Christian baptism in the Osiris myth. The fate of Osiris’s coffin in the Nile is as relevant to baptism as the sinking of Atlantis.


Looking back through the the Mystery religions, which were competing with Christianity and were loosely based on some versions of ancient religions, and borrowing vocabulary from a Christian worldview while back tracking through centuries of culture, society, and language, is not a responsible look at the historicity of the man from Nazareth names Jesus nor of his claim to be the Christ.

-- Nick

The Nick said...

Apparantly I figured out how to not post anonymously. I apologize for the previous unecessary apology.

maureen said...

Pagan religions were for the most part polytheistic and included worship of a variety of gods so I don't believe that they demanded any exclusivity of worship. Whether or not the demand was made however isn't really relevant. In actual fact, the worship of these gods accommodates the inclusion of other gods in a personalized pantheon. The worship of Christ will not.

If the most High God "so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him might not perish but have everlasting life", there simply isn't a role for any other god to fulfill.

If, on the other hand, this hasn't occurred, then there is room for a lot of other gods to meet all of the secondary hungers that stem from this first fundamental (and unanswered) hunger.

The essence of the Triune God (who so loved the world} is Life, Truth and Love. When you get down to it, all other human needs are derivative of these core elements (which are mysteriously one substance in God). So again, there just doesn't seem to be any 'other where' for other gods to dwell.

The only way that belief in Jesus can be incorporated into a pantheon is to deny some element of the original revelation. This is a popular position today but it is always a reworking (and thus a denial) of the original revelation

egyptchick7 said...

Thank you for refuting the part one of the movie. I was hoping that what was said about Jesus to be untrue. I am Muslim and one of our core beliefs is that Jesus did indeed exist, born of a virgin, ( NOT THE SON OF GOD) but you get my drift :)

Anonymous said...

Despite every comment and every opinion and every Want of any number of people, there is simply no way a sane, logical person could take the bible literally. While not being my point, it is the Only point of the section in Zeitgeist regarding religion. Some people Do take such an obviously fabricated story as truth, and arguing this sets the scene for the rest of the movie. It is not about religion at all, but about the willingness of people to believe in things they are told irrespective of the evidence.

The Nick said...

Actually there is a way that a sane logical person can take MUCH of the Bible quite literally. Did Jesus really want us to cut out our eyes, probably not. But did Jesus literally do the things the Bible reports him to do. Most definately. C.S. Lewis was quite sane and logical. He was the first Professor of Medieval and Renaissance Literature at the University of Cambridge. He knew literature. Responding to modern criticism of the Gospel of John as mere allegory or myth Lewis states:
"I have been reading poems, romances, vision-literature, legends, myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know that not one of them is like this. Of this text there are only two possible views. Either this is reportage—though it may no doubt contain errors—pretty close up to the facts; nearly as close as Boswell. Or else, some unknown writer in the second century, without known predecessors or successors, suddenly anticipated the whole technique of modern novelistic, realistic narrative. If it is untrue, it must be narrative of that kind. The reader who doesn't see this has simply not learned to read."

Dorsett, Lyle W. ed. The Essential C.S. Lewis. New York. Simon & Schuster, 1988.

The Nick said...

In response to Anonymous' point: that this "fabricated story" of Jesus sets the stage for the rest of the movie, the shabby job the movie did in reporting on Christianity and ancient myths begs a second look at the rest of the movie's reportage.
Even if the other parts of the movie ring true, the first part was unrealated and shabbily handled.
The book of Luke was studied over 30 years by Sir Walter Ramsay who said, "Luke is a historian of the first rank, not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy... this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." The book of Luke has been studied by one prominent archaeologist concerning Luke's references to thirty-two countries, fifty-four cities, and nine islands, finding not a single mistake.
Doesn't sound like the type to make up a fabrication based on myth.

Anonymous said...

Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
He was of royal descent.
At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
He ad 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns").
He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead.
Horus walked on water.
His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child."
He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected.
Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth.
Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
He came to fulfill the Law.
Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."
Was supposed to reign one thousand years.

so you say he NEVER walked on water? OR had 12 disciples?

well the sources you GAVE us actually contradicts what you say.

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.

Michael Barber said...

Which source of mine said that?

Anonymous said...

hello
i thought these may help:
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/sources.htm
here you can find all the sources of the information used in the movie, and check for yourself if its true or not

deviadah said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Image from the temple at Luxor, depicting Amenhotep III applying to his own human wife the legend of Thoth announcing to Neith (the primordial waters) that she would become pregnant with Ra (the king of heaven), the actual impregnation delivered by Kneph and Hathor via the ankh, leaving --> Neith "ever virgin"<--, the subsequent birth over a birth brick, and the praise raised to the child by her courtiers and the gods. The form of Ra at this point was Ra-Amun, who was becoming identified as Horus. The child, that is consequently described as being Ra/Horus, went on to become Akhenaten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LuxorAmenhetep.gif

All this was under a wiki article and Neith is described as the ever virgin. I may not be exactly like Jesus in Christian faith but its one the templates used in many religions. (The virgin thing that is.) It just worded a lot differently.

Michael Barber said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael Barber said...

Anonymous,

Once again, here's another claim that falls apart upon careful research.

First of all, the fact that you're getting your information from wikipedia says a lot about the kind of research you're doing. Wikipedia can be helpful, but only if you use it with other sources. In fact, Wikipedia is famous for its unreliable information! This was just in the news today as a matter of fact (go here).

As for your claim, the Luxor Temple absolutely does NOT indicate what you say it does. Even athiests such as Richard Carrier recognize this. For a fuller discussion go here and here.

People can make all kinds of outrageous claims but they never go anywhere because careful research reveals that they just don't pan out. Sensationalism may sell a lot of books but in the end it's all just hype.

Anonymous said...

"In fact, there's more evidence Jesus existed than virtually any one else in antiquity."

This is such an obvious and shameless lie. Shame on you for it. This claim really makes me furoius, It is repeated over and over by religious fanatics who have no respect for honesty and truth.
Jesus of nazareth is only mentioned by tacitus (110-120 bc) and josephus(90 BC). The latter is an obvious forgery(despite biased insistence by christians) and the former is made 80 years after the supposed cruicification. the primary source of tacitus is unknown. He could be just repeating what christians in his own time were tellling the world.
You are not the first to claim the shameless statement above of course.
please see the following link: http://jesusneverexisted.com/exist.html

it debunks ur shameless lie very convincingly

stfrequency said...

Greetings,

I have written a review and thought-piece on this movie that you might find interesting: http://www.realitysandwich.com/node/471

-st

Anonymous said...

its scary to see how widely exepted christianity is. the bible is not reality, there is divine presence on earth, ITS ALL AROUND YOU,mother earth and father sun produce nature! to think that god would actually make his son human, its disgusting. god manifests himself all around you, but humanity is too wrapped up in itself to see. the bible is a great story,a metaphorical guide to how we should act. to take such a fantastic tale to heart is like slapping god in the face. mankind turned against god the day we analyzed our surroundings and asked ourselves, how can we improve upon this."an organism fighting against itself is doomed." the real point of zeitgeist is to show you the ugly truth of humanitys path and where its leading.

Michael Barber said...

That's the difference... while nonbelievers think that the story is too good to be true Christians believe it isn't.

It is "disgusting" to think that God would make his son human? Wow. I guess I just don't think there are limits to God's love. You apparently do.

The fact is, Zeigeist reveals nothing but ignorance. The claims made are ridiculously wrong. I just covered the Horus isues in my post. It is patently untrue that Horus was crucified, that had twelve disciples, etc. No ancient account of Horus' life includes those details.

Now you may want to persist in ignorance--that's fine. But don't say that Zeitgeist is revealing. It only reveals how incredibly ignorant of archeology and history people can be.

Anonymous said...

first of all, gods connection to humanity is an invention to control the masses. religion is created by humans, more importantly the bible is created by humans, its nothing more than combined stories which condition the mind to act on good will. its something to learn from,i know theres a god out there but by believing he listens to your every whim and watches over the good of humanity, THAT IS IGNORANCE. WAKE UP, were in this alone. where was god when bush blew up the twin towers killing 3000 people only to create FEAR. fear that has allowed him to bypass the constitution our forefathers knowignly placed, its there to hault the obsession of pursuit of POWER. it disgusts me to see people who believe god would create a human son because that is the essence of ignorance. human emotion is amazingly powerful thing, therefore it can be used in the pursuit of power. i have the IDEA that jesus was just a person, not born of a virgin birth or any of the other bull$%#& the CHURCH claims. as for horus, i never mentioned him in my post! however i do not believe in these stretched parallels. i feel jesus was a good HUMAN whose teachings were great, then the church and those in power created this fantastic story,wrapped it around his life,and reeped the benefits of a system for human control. churches took the great idea of good will slapped a list of rules on it and claimed you must believe and follow; or burn in the lake of fire for eternity. FEAR is used by power seeking scoundrels to influence our society drasticly. humanity has great potential, our emotions are at the center of our hearts and minds which drive us ever forward. sadly there are some humans who are treasonous to humanity, and what better to use against humanity than humanity itself. by redirecting the power of negative emotions back at humanity.as i said "an organism(humanity) fighting against itself is doomed." Zeitgeist provides awareness that we need to stop this fighting before it consumes us, doom is not inevitable... break away from systems of control which condition your mind. THE CHURCH: provides a false sense of security by falsely reassuring you of the connection between humanity and god. keep in mind, its not the ideas christianity applies to REAL life(acting on good will, being a good human, ect.) that i am criticising. MASS MEDIA: distracts you from reality,from reality T.V. shows to NEWS on "real" events, it all distracts you from reality. the world revolves around money, therefore people with money influence the world. hmmm, lets see here, i guess that would make money = to power(gaining power with money). so with enough money one could possibly control the world. SAD TRUTH. corrupt individuals create propaganda to condition the mind.im sure many think, my mind, nooooo. IGNORANCE. psychology- the science of mental processes and behavior. science is an amazing thing, a double edged sword really. but thats the thing, mans thrist for knowledge and understanding has led humanity through many trials, but none greater than that which we face today, tomorrow, and every day to the end of our existance. we are walking a tight rope over a pit with no end in sight balance is of the utmost importance.

zeitgeist cleared up alot for me and just in case you havent seen the entire movie, which considering your statements about the clips on youtube i dont think you have, you can find it at www.zeitgeistmovie.com this site includes sources and other information which expose bush's treason.

btw michael ignorance is something we all possess,but our level of it is what encourages the men behind the curtain.

Anonymous said...

furthermore, the site was recently updated, and i qoute this statement from the site.

" Zeitgeist was created as a not for profit expression to inspire people to start looking at the world
from a more critical perspective and to understand that very often things are not what the
population at large think they are. The information in Zeitgeist was established over a year long period
of research and the current Source page on this site lists the sources used / referenced.
Soon, an interactive transcript will be online with detailed footnotes and links.

It's important to point out that there is a tendency to simply disbelieve things that are
counter to our understanding, without the necessary research performed.
For example, some information contained in Part 1 and Part 3, specifically, is not obtained
by simple keyword searches on the Internet. You have to dig deeper. For instance,
very often people who look up "Horus" or "The Federal Reserve" on the Internet
draw their conclusions from very general or biased sources. Online encyclopedias or text book
Encyclopedias often do not contain the information contained in Zeitgeist. However, if one takes
the time to read the sources provided, they will find that what is being presented is
based on documented evidence. Any corrections, clarifications & further points regarding the film
are found on the Clarifications page.

That being said, It is my hope that people will not take what is said
in the film as the truth, but find out for themselves, for truth is not told, it is realized.

Thank You"

michael i hope take this statement to heart and check the site out, i find it funny you claim there are no sources.

"they must find it difficult... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority."

-Gerald Massey

Michael Barber said...

Anonymous,

I appreciate your passion, but it's misdirected. The point is, the "sources" cited are unreliable.

As you probably know, when you do research there are two kinds of sources you need to consult. Primary sources and secondary sources. "Primary" sources refer to, for example, the ancient accounts of Horus--the Egyptian sources themselves. "Secondary" sources refer to the works of those who write about the primary sources.

Now, if you have a secondary source that claims that, for example, the ancient accounts of Horus involve him being crucified, you need to check the primary source for that to confirm this. The secondary sources are only good inasmuch as the accurately explain the primary sources.

If you don't understand, let me explain it another way. Imagine a book tells you that in the 1950's a certain paper contained a story that Duke Snider of the Brooklyn Dodgers corked his bat. That book would be a "secondary source." You'd have to go back and try to find that actual newspaper article--the "primary source." Authors simply can't make up stories, they need to produce their own sources.

The problem is, in the list of the "sources" used for zeigeist, the secondary sources ARE NOT TRUTHFUL about what is in the primary sources.

I can tell you that I have done research into this myself. Have you ever actually READ the ancient sources. I doubt it! If you did you'd have a hard time buying what is being said here.

But don't take my word for it. Look for these sources yourself... you'll find they don't exist!

Anonymous said...

can you give me the location of these "ancient sources" you so boldly claim you have? i have done my research, there is no information that distinguishes horus truthfully.

check out www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/horus.htm you will find, among many of the distorted theories of his role in ancient egypt, one variant titled har-sa-iset/harsiesis. har-sa-iset literally translates to horus son of isis, I stongly suggest you research this variant and other variants, you will find they are all BASED on ancient egyptian sources. har-sa-iset is significantly more common than other variants. if osiris is in the under world before horus was concieved, how was horus concieved? of a virgin birth,isis breathed in horus' soul thus impregnating her. as for meff the holy ghost, which in zeitgeist impregnates isis, i have found no information online about meff. however, i have yet to find the primary ancient sources you claim to have.

i also came to the conclusion that that some of the history of egypt came from ancient greece(greece is a primary source of history of ancient times), greece had interests in egypt and over time our knowledge of egypt has become somewhat mashed up. i feel this makes egyptologists like gerald massey, who were in egypt studying egypt, a more reliable source of information. but, unlike you, i have faith in this movie.

just dont say zeitgeist dosent have its sources, thats a ball-faced lie. like the statement says, you have to dig deeper, find more secondary information relate it with the "factual" primary sources, and youll find some things dont add up. scratching the surface isnt going to cut it you'll find ancient history like this is VERY clouded.

im not just arguing the religous side of this movie, im preaching the concept,that things arent what they seem. and if this relgious myth created by the church did serve as a catalyst for all systems of human control we face today, than it is the opposition, to the dear truth we all seek. i hope you can realize that the institution known as the church has been capitalizing on human emotion only for power(money). And as for the TRUE teachings of jesus, sadly, they are lost forever.

btw you can call me eric.

Anonymous said...

One thing that stands out significantly in most of these comments is the fact that many people have spent long, laborious amounts of time studying the bible, trying to discover whether or not it is fact. And almost all of them come up with their own interpretation, falling close to either end of the spectrum. To me, the first part of this movie seems like merely another study, with another set of results, just angled to open the mind for the rest of the movie, and make you think. And sure, it may be wrong, and it may be right, but there is nothing wrong with learning to question things. It brings people closer to actual intelligence, something people seem to be running short on theses days.

eric said...

thank you for your contribution anonymous, that was my original mindset coming into this arguement(my posts start at 10:12pm with "its scary to see how widespread christianity is", and all following posts are me and michaels arguement, aside from yours). but michael claimed the sources for part one of the movie were untruthful, but the truth is, part one is based on widely argued subject with plenty of sources. michael, this movie was made to make you think. to assert that the movie is untruthful because the sources are vague is ignorance. furthermore, horus, though an important role in the theory zeitgeist proposes,is a very small part of the big picture. so please dont judge my passions, i understand that sources and fact play an enourmous part in finding the REAL truth, whatever that may be. but the curious thing is all sources on ancient history have been tainted at some point.in fact,
when it comes to sources and fact your religion is hung out to dry, by the SUN of course.

-its been fun, my apologies for bombarding you with input. I look forward to your next post.

eric said...

p.s.

i mentioned in earlier posts i did not believe the stretched parallels between jesus and horus. that statement was based on the fact that some of the claimed parallels were questionable. i am conducting my own research, and as i said ancient history is clouded. but the point anonymous made during our debate covers the jhist of zeitgeist.

Michael Barber said...

Eric,

Thanks for giving a name! Sounds like you're really interested in serious research.

Great to meet you...

First off, I'm ALL for asking questions and careful research--I do not believe faith and history are unrelated. So do not think I have a problem with questions per se. The problem I have is claims based on lies. Again, for example, Zeitgeist claims that according to ancient Eygptian mythology Horus was crucified--that's an outrageous lie without any foundation period.

First of all, here you will find some translations into English of the actual Egyptian texts.

I'm not sure how ancient the version of the story you're referring to is. Do you have any information on that? What's the source for that? Where did you read that?

Keep in mind, that the Isis mythology continued to develop AFTER the rise of Christianity and, in fact, later versions borrowed elements from Christianity--something often overlooked by sensationalist authors.

I certainly do not dispute that Egyptian mythology held that Isis conceived Horus through Orious. But keep in mind that Isis was herself a goddess, the god of the underworld, who, according to the most ancient versions, took Osirius' dead body to the netherworld where she had sex with him. This she did after his body had been cut up into pieces and put back together, except for his penis, which was lost when it was thrown into water and eaten by a fish. Isis therefore fashioned a new penis for him. According to the ancient temple imagery this was how she conceived Horus.

How in the world is that like anything in Luke 1, where Jesus is born of a human virgin girl who lived in Judea? You've got to read a lot into Luke 1 to make it fit the Isis scenario!

Michael Barber said...

Eric,

Do not apologize for posting too much. I'm glad you've come by.

You make the point above that Zeitgeist's treatment of religion "is based on widely argued subject with plenty of sources. michael, this movie was made to make you think. to assert that the movie is untruthful because the sources are vague is ignorance."

The fact is, the sources ARE untruthful. Massey, Ancharya, and company are dubious sources.

What you seem to be saying is that it is wrong for me to be so adamant here because there is still some "debate". In other words, since there are people claiming that, e.g., Horus was crucified, I should be willing to admit at least the possibility that this is so.

That's outrageous.

I'm of course all for keeping an open mind--for being, as you said, "made to think". I'm finishing a Ph.D., for crying out loud, I know how to think critically.

But I'm NOT going to give any credence whatsoever to blatant lies. There's a difference between "making you think" and outright lies. There's a difference between presenting both sides of an issue and outright propaganda.

I'm upset because the claims here are patently false. Is that wrong?

Some people think the earth really is flat. Should we be less sure about the shape of the earth, acknowledging this as a debated point?

Some people believe scientific evidence reveals that women are less capable of intellectual enterprises than men. Should we accept that as a "debated" point?

Some people think that evidence shows that African American slaves were not really mistreated by owners. Is that now a debated point?

The fact is, the people who "debate" such things do not proceed from credible evidence. Their objections are based on prejudice and a desire to reinforce certain prejudices.

Aksing questions is a good thing. Being exposed to different perspectives is also very important. But, the fact is, when questions are asked NOT because of evidence but out of the motivation to support prejudice, that is a different story. I won't stand for it.

I'm all for people getting at the truth. Zeitgeist, however, is not telling the truth. And that is a big deal. Isn't it?

Let's just take one example. To include in your movie the claim that, again, for example, Horus was crucified demonstrates an astonishing lack of critical and prudential judgment.

Of course, the movie is NOT primarily about Horus. But it starts off on that point! Shouldn't that give us serious pause? Shouldn't that red flag this?

Eric, I'm pretty sure you can see that this really reveals the prejudice at work here against Christianity and the lack of serious research behind the movie.

I think any reasonable person would agree with that. Let's have a dialogue--but let's make sure we're being honest about things. You can't tell lies and then justify it by saying, "It makes you think." That's outrageous.

Am I missing something here?

Why are people so ready to simply overlook this as not a big deal? The movie is not "asking questions" about whether Horus was crucified--it makes the outright claim that he was! Isn't it important to present things truthfully?

Getting to the truth is a BIG deal to me. So let's do that.

By the way, if you're doing your own research, I'd encourage you to have an open mind and read some things that maybe are also written from a Christian perspective. I don't think you would be opposed to that. Check out a book by a Harvard graduate, Mark D. Roberts' book, Can We Trust the Gospels?

Thanks again for posting...

eric said...

-some great points!

michael, you ARE missing something here, i enjoy your scholarship but your overlooking the point of the movie. zeitgeist dosent claim to be truth, zeitgeist is more a thought peice than anything. it was created to help shock the american public out of this stupefying daze we are in. theres a point in the movie where Peter Finch of network is ranting about the propaganda force a.k.a. T.V. He screams "in gods name, you people are the real thing, we are the illusion!" that was my point of revelation. zeitgeist makes it clear, that all video, INCLUDING ZEITGEIST, is an illusion.i cant explain the moment of clarity. the point is, zeitgeist takes what you know as ignorance and broadens its horizons.

The religious side of this movie is suspect, which as expected raises caution. but by discrediting the rest of the movie, you are simply ignoring what dosent meet with your understanding.

i will make an example of the ignorance zeitgeist targets. please note that i am not judging your PERSONAL beliefs. As a christian it is considered blasphemy to question god. this is a belief, a conviction of the truth, which in turn limits your ability/capacity to find truth. zeitgeist particularly focuses on the institution known as the church, which capitalizes on belief systems, to form a mechanism for human control. you said in a previous post, "By the way, if you're doing your own research, I'd encourage you to have an open mind and read some things that maybe are also written from a Christian perspective." "Check out a book by a Harvard graduate, Mark D. Roberts' book, Can We Trust the Gospels?" this is preciseley zeitgeist's point, the church capitalized on the beliefs of christianity, for there own interests. thats why zeitgeist starts with christianity, to shine light on the corrupt institutions of our world! Thus leading into part 2, and the convictions on our current administration having sinister interests.

to clarify part 1 of zeitgeist, keep in mind the corrupt nature of the church and gospels. all part 1 is really doing is questioning the foundations of christianity, which due to the corrupt nature of the church is SUSPECT. this is the 'debate' i spoke of earlier, over the authenticty of christianity. all part 1 is, is another theory on the nature of christianity.

in conclusion,the church projected themselves as the word of god, and it is considered blasphemy to question god. so the church, as an INSTITUTION, created a system for human control. this makes christianity ITSELF suspect. you see what were doing right now, thinking, this is the purpose of zeitgeist.

michael, the IDEA is, the universe is a creation of god, you and I and the sun itself are all sons of god. but it is up to you, to put faith in this IDEA that is the universe, and not in BELIEFS created by man which only serve to divide and conquer. "an organism at war with itself is doomed". i hope i have provided you with some insight to where your faiths should lie. christianity aside we are both men of god, whatever god is!

sincerely, eric

eric said...

on the matter of zeitgeist being propaganda i couldent agree with you more. but i believe its what we need in this nation, especially for the youth. this is propaganda enforcing critical thinking and questioning. Im a senior in high school and every year i see more kids with an the i dont give a fuck attitude. zeitgeist is a counter to the mind numbing entertainment consuming the youth. it also makes one question the news, an extremely influential propaganda machine if treated as so. And guess what! as youth of america, by watching this movie ive devoted time to discussing things like this.

as for your disposition to part 1 i hope my previous comment was influential. but regarding that, i still think the comment anonymous made in the middle of our conversation covered the jhist of it best; "To me, the first part of this movie seems like merely another study, with another set of results, just angled to open the mind for the rest of the movie, and make you think. And sure, it may be wrong, and it may be right, but there is nothing wrong with learning to question things. It brings people closer to actual intelligence, something people seem to be running short on theses days."

-check out therealnews.com they could be a new "un-baised" news program.

Bob said...

Hello all. I've recently watched the whole Zeitgeist movie, which can be found in it's full, 2-hr, uninterrupted length on youtube. Though this post is 4 weeks old, I'm hopng there's still some activity in here.

Michael, when you wrote somewhere above, "People can make all kinds of outrageous claims but they never go anywhere because careful research reveals that they just don't pan out. Sensationalism may sell a lot of books but in the end it's all just hype," were you referring to Christianity & the Bible? Or just editorializing about the relative reliability of Internet resources and secondary resources in general? Of course, this is a somewhat irreverent and rhetorical question I'm posing. Nevertheless the way I see it, religion (as fact and not philosphy), as a product that is perpetually marketed and sold to the masses, is itself an "outrageous claim" that "doesn't pan out." And trying to do "careful research" on the Bible seems as efficacious as analyzing Grimm's Fairy Tales for the real truth behind the parables. To me, neither can be true. Even the Bible is incomplete, and has been translated/interpreted too many times to retain it's pure meaning. Books were omitted from the Bible by the Church because they didn't serve/went against the re-purposed, tax-collecting, opressing Church. So while many of the "lessons" of the Bible are worth learning, I don't believe that the only way to become a good person is through God, or through any religious organization.

You discussed at length your disapproval of the treatment of the Horus myth, alleging that he was not crucified as the movie says. But I don't find any credible evidence of Christ's virgin birth or performances of miracles, either. I mean, I've seen documents recounting stories about such events, but none of those pan out for me, at least not in any way that can unseat my confidence in biology, physics and chemistry. To me these three discplines better explain our existence and relationship to our universe than an ancient book of symbolic stories, be it Bible, Koran, Torah, whichever. But despite the inaccuracies you point out in Part I, can't the possibility still exist that the point about the Church (throughout the ages) using religion as a system of human conrol and influence is true?

However, my goal here isn't to argue for atheism to you, a theologian, rather, I hope to merely encourage you to not let your differences with the religious aspects of the movie deter you from retaining your open mind for the rest of the information presented. The movie, I believe/agree is a little misdirected at the beginning, and will undoubtedly irk the devout. But even the devout would be living in denial to think that the church is not corrupt. One must see that the church is used (maybe not designed, but used by those with power and a desire for more) to manipulate the will of its subjects, no? The hateful/loving God is one of the paradoxes of religion that both amuses and perplexes me. There's a sound-bite from George Carlin that talks about Catholicism's dizzying circular argument, which basically says "God wants you to do these things and not do these others or you'll burn in hell for all eternity, but He LOVES you!" I can't get my head around that. It's as if he's the drunk, abusive, loving father of an abused child. Not my hero by any means. Maybe God is bipolar?

Jesus' message has evolved through time to lose it's simplicity and beauty. Today, his message has been bastardized to reinforce the nefarious efforts of the Church, which of course are not obvious.

And that's where the movie really begins. Once you shed the perception that an authority that wields power over its subjects is not inherently benevolent, you can then be more receptive to the real message of the project: We all are being deceived by the secret proponents of the New World Order and Governent AND, more critically, this deception is how the secret governtment is furthering its plans to subvert its subjects, surreptitiously luring the public into happy, entertaining, voluntary economic slavery. Must... consume. Must... consume. Must be a Good Consumer.

The continuing erosion of our liberties in the name of "security"
is a problem. But the scary part is that it is a process that is ongoing and accelerating. Many are concerned that the future of the US is one of fascist control.

When you examine the rest of the movie, the video and interviews should be eye-opening. No one seems to see our way of life devolving right before us. Part of this problem is made possible by mass media's grip on what we see and know. And the current administration, in step with previous ones, wags the dog and redirects our attention. Instead of running the story about a civil liberty violation, they run the one about a little girl rescued by US Marines in Iraq. Except the real story is that the Marines accidentally killed her whole family first in a sad occurrence of bad intelligence.

Long ago someone tossed a BIG pizza-dough up in the air. It's been spinning above us silently and will fall back down, but we'll all be crushed by it--because we've forgotten it's there. Once covered in it, we'll find it difficult to extricate ourselves from under the New United States.

Anonymous said...

Bob, well said!!!!!!!!!!!!! I Agree so much with your comment, thank you!!!

K

Anonymous said...

godfags are butthurt *sob* its awesome how you people believe in your made up friends

Anonymous said...

I agree with everything Bob just said. Well done, sir.

OK, almost everything he said. I started down the rabbit hole as I watched Part III of the film unfold, until I got to the statement of David Rockefeller at 1:44:00, about how "the supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries." Frankly, what's so bad about that? I look around me at all the mindless masses and I'm thankful our election process is a farce. I certainly don't trust my future to this unequivocal majority of the brain-dead. One world government means no wars? Fine. I can fall in line voluntarily under those circumstances instead of being duped into it by our current financial structure. Will the bankers and intellectual elite be truly benevolent? Probably not. But my 'individual liberty' has gotten me nowhere so far -- here I am waiting for Bob's pizza-dough to fall. How can I care? What would I truly lose to succumb to the rule of the elite? How am I not already there? As long as they keep us slave to debt, what freedoms do any of us actually have?

No, the truth is that if it all happened and fell into place tomorrow, and we all had RFID chips in us already, I doubt 99.5% or the general population would notice, much less care if they knew. I can't see that totalitarian future being any worse than the shit stew we're all swimming in right now. Truth has never mattered less.

Mitchell LeBlanc said...

In regards to that which you have exposed as being lies in the Zeitgeist film, I invite you to view my blog in which I dive a little bit deeper into the lies presented by this travesty.

http://mitchblog.com/?p=6

carlos said...

Thank god we all come to our senses and worship a carpenter who lived 2000 years ago...

Azadian said...

Anonymous said...
Frankly, what's so bad about that?

Centralisation of power and money has resulted in todays slavery, be it your toil for the roof over your head, or the child workers in third world countries earning pennies a day.


Anonymous said...
I look around me at all the mindless masses and I'm thankful our election process is a farce.

What a defeatist posture!
It's your distrust and fear that breeds the same in others.
If so many people are "brain dead" is the solution not education and reform of the systems that,
a. made them that way?
b. subverted democracy?


Anonymous said...
One world government means no wars? Fine. I can fall in line voluntarily under those circumstances...

You forgot the issue of factionalism. Look at the divisions in any group, be it political, sporting or bridge club.
It's just one human flaw (among many) that they will no doubt exploit.


Anonymous said...
But my 'individual liberty' has gotten me nowhere so far -- here I am waiting for Bob's pizza-dough to fall. How can I care? What would I truly lose to succumb to the rule of the elite?

Oh you don't wanna know...
Taking what little freedoms you have for granted isn't the answer either! In fact, let's put aside the notion of freedom for a moment.

On principle alone, this cannot stand!

The dough is falling? Fine, we work together to make a strong shelter or blow that sucker into a million fragments!


Anonymous said...
How am I not already there? As long as they keep us slave to debt, what freedoms do any of us actually have?

Perhaps in each of our own minds, we're already there. As for being in debt, that's the choice of the individual!

Our household has been debt-free since 2002. But then, we live a modest lifestyle (younger people might say slightly Amish by 2007 standards).
Okay, we have just one car that's nearly 20 years old.
Our meals are primarily home-cooked.
Instead of replacing things with expensive new ones, I try to fix them.
Our TVs are 10+ years old.
No mortgage, we rent!
You get the picture.


Anonymous said...
No, the truth is that if it all happened and fell into place tomorrow, and we all had RFID chips in us already, I doubt 99.5% or the general population would notice, much less care if they knew.

We're HUMAN BEINGS! We're not pets to be chipped for identification and tracking!
Individual choice, freedom and power is set to be stripped from us -- the power to choose, the power to negotiate, the choice to disagree, where to go, what to eat, what to say.

Again, few will realise the gravity of something so horrific until a faceless bureaucrat screws up, switches off your chip and you can't buy gas, food, medicine or whatever.
Annoying? For sure. Possibly fatal too.

I've just illustrated an honest mistake. What about abuses of power?


Anonymous said...
I can't see that totalitarian future being any worse than the shit stew we're all swimming in right now. Truth has never mattered less.

So they've screwed up the system (by design) 90% of the way, and you're suggesting we go the remaining 10% just because it's easier?

Look Anon, it might seem I'm being an argumentative ass -- guilty as charged. I have no beef with you, but rather your attitude.

What happened to eternal vigilance?
Have we been so defeated?
Where's the strong, proud America I looked up to as a kid?

Being stamped, branded or chipped like animals might appeal to you, but it only eases their control over those who accept it.
The question is, do you trust them, absolutely, with your life?

Anonymous said...

"Second, we get a series of claims that because the summarized online versions of the Horus myth that the author links to do not include the details included in the movie, the details in the movie must be LIES! Huh? How does that work?"

"Summarized online versions"

-Micah, the internet did not exist in 1961. He referenced BOOKS- in fact it was a wonderfully documented essay, even had the authors and books noted at the bottom. In this article where the main author said "lies lies lies" I was not persuaded, but when I clicked that link, It cleared things up. I am more likely to believe something that references clearly and easily it's multiple sources, than something that pretty much follows a single book (especially one so modern as 1999).

I have my serious doubts about you being a PhD student as well, mostly because you sound like my brother. (My brother has the uncanny capacity to lie about anything with complete conviction and argue it to the death. He is the perfect lawyer, too bad he doesn't want to practice law.)

"We get appeals to authority"-
Well, what did you expect??? Appeals to Wikipedia authors? Come on. There is a reason they are called scholars, and a reason that people appeal to authority. It isn't to get their had patted and given a treat.

Something tells me you didn't even -research- the listed sources.

Anonymous said...

About the movie....that movie is a lot of b.s. I think.
First, they totally clown 'religion' when 'religion' is its own 'set of rules about how divine and god work' depending upon which culture.
not all religion is bad, and it certainly isn't the same.
More than anything, I saw this video as espousing their own religion as astrology more than anything....astrology given a reason to disbelieve everything else (even the bible) and to believe other.

Another thing is that there is one truth...who was Jesus...because He was resurrected....all the other imitations of the divine savior/ son is not suprising. The truth is at war with Satan, the Adversary who is NOT original by himself, on the contrary, Satan can only IMITATE falsely the truth, but cannot create it. thus, Satan, in order to stray the sons of man, comes in different forms, pretending to be the truth and the light, dressed up as an angel of light, but really being the darkness and the LIE that strays man from the truth.

The video people obviously don't know much about Jesus....the JEWISH savior....who WAS NOT born on Dec 25 but only Christian secular holidays celebrate that because of pagan institution. All Jews know this. All Jewish believers know this.
Plus, one of the only things that differentiated the Jewish people from their unbelieving neighbors was the fact that the Jewish calendar was not (and still is not) based upon the Sun but is based upon by the Moon/ Lunar Cycles. Just to blow their whole dec. 25/ sun/ constellation/ astrology foundation off its dumb asss!

Then, they prelude this whole shebang with George Carlin's Bullshit Religion meter which everyone laughs at?
Just because people pervert the institutions of God for their human benefit does not make the Truth any less powerful, it only the depravity of man and why man needs God in the first place.
Religion, whether its Catholicism or Christianity, have in their past and still do in some institutions corrupt the truth for monetary gain, which will be judged by God, no doubt.

I think I could go on and on about this, but there is only ONE truth and One messiah.
Jesus alone proved himself to be true Son of God despite all the False attempts of Satan before to imitate Him.
Jesus is Real because I know the devils Hate him, that He is the only name in this heaven or the heaven above by which demons kneel their nasty ass heads and flee in fright.
I have heard, seen, and been a vicitm of many of these nasty things and I KNOW that JESUS IS REAL because in HIS name AND ONLY HIS NAME DO THEY FLEE.
In this life, Jesus is only true light,
and Satan hopes to deceive man out of union with God by getting them to believe LIES about the REAL SAVIOR.

True, Jesus did come to save the weak, and he loves the broken and is next to the poor, but belief in Jesus requires humility, for you to accept that you don't know it all or have all the answers and that you need divine help and guidance in his world. All humans in fact NEED. All humans NEED God whether or not they admit to it or not. The ones who don't admit to it are usually proud....they want to think themselves as God....don't want to admit their vulnerability/ weakness/ need, so they stay out of a relationship with a God who truly loves them.

Only God really knows our hearts, can heal them, and can give us the desires of our hearts.....He can only make us happy and at peace. He is the God of peace. Don't believe lies so you can sit in the seat of mockers as George Carlin does. The mocker/ Scoffer seat is reserved for the proud, for those so busy looking down and making fun of everyone else that they never get on their knees and acknowledge to God that they might not know everything. Just because man has corrupted the light of God doesn't mean the Light is itself corrupt!

fourtysixandto said...

I think to say that everything in this movie is inacurate is kinda rediculous....all your doing is putting what youve been told against what has been said and it dosnt fit.....what about all othe other gods of other religions and reigons who have striking similarities to jesus? why do u only discuss horus? i think you have to take both these stories in on your own and weigh them. You cannot deny that the christian faith has done some rediculous things "in the name of god" such has the crusades....tell me that that was right and your a maniac. email me a response at fourtysixandto@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

to all you hardcore christians who rather want to believe myths than search for the truth, i recommend the following movie so you have another dokumentation that shows how and why modern religions are created and where they are truely founded:

The Pharmacratic Inquisition

Search for it and watch it at Google video.

Always remember: The truth will set you free ... but first it´ll piss you off.

Anonymous said...

I could clearly see that the "facts" presented in the first part of the Zeitgeist movie. Were put together shottily at best.

What i took from the creators decision to include that information was...to not allow myself to become so wrapped up in the idea of religion, as to exclude THINKING and RELIZING the importance of the events in the world around me.

The main objective of Part 1 in my mind. Is not that the writter was attempting to debunk christianity , its that he's saying "WAKE UP" dont be blinded by propoganda.

Anonymous said...

"By the way, if you're doing your own research, I'd encourage you to have an open mind and read some things that maybe are also written from a Christian perspective. I don't think you would be opposed to that."

Let's be inclusive and include commentary from believers in the tooth fairy, as well.

Anonymous said...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

Citations given at bottom.

Paul said...

Michael Barber's reply to people's concerns generated by the film "Zeitgiest" are emotive and not academic or logical. I don't see any 'academic credibility' is discrediting a film published on the internet, by citing four references which are themselves just websites; not peer-reviewed, not substantiated.

What's of further concern are the six points listed under "Let's go over just some of the data:". Here, Michael has merely listed six points made in the film and stated "That's a lie." That's all. Nothing more, no explanations, no proof as to why it's "a lie". Anyone who is honest with themselves will at least recognise that this isn't even an ARGUMENT, lest a intelligent rebuttal.

There is no genuine scholarship or academic credibility here, just someone upset that their beliefs have been called into quesiton. One can cannot truly be objective about a subject when the logical/rational constructs used to analyse it are blindly bounded by their emotional needs.

Jason T. MA, USA said...

All I have to say is that it's 2007 and the movie Zeitgeist is very convincing, even if it is untrue. In way way, it proves it's own point, people can be deceived. The Bible is also a fake, unreadable, mistranslation upon mistranslation written thousends of years ago. To live one's life by such an obvious bunch of horseshit like the Bible is stupid. Zeitgeist is just another anti-establishment movie in a long line of anti-establishment movies/books/etc. To take it as gospel is as foolish as religion itself. What it does do very effectivly is it changes the conversation, it makes you want to question what our "leaders" are telling us, it presents the idea that there may be more to the story and sometimes things are not what they seem.

Anonymous said...

i really don't know what to think now.....some say Zeitgeist the movie shows the truth some say it doesn't.... anyways....about U.S. i believe it's true...

Jesus Christ may have existed but I really don't understand the importance of The Church ... i think true Christians don't need priests or anything like that....these intermediary people are fully corrupted. I'd better believe in some sort of divinity and never care about the "divine" humans who walked this earth long ago....I simply have God and just that...no Jesus Christ,no Virgin Mary,Holy Spirit ans so on and so forth ....
There's no other thing more dangerous than the human mind.

eric said...

well said paul and jason! consciousness is a blessing and a burden.you have to harness and understand the power of the mind. we are all agnostic, whatever fabricated story you grow up with up you naturally believe. but all religion is based around one thing...god. really think about it, do think some other human just like you in a different place in time somehow figured it all out, its fairy tales. its all based on one persons revelations which arent anywhere closer to the unchanging truth than our own. what is the truth you ask? its right in front of you, you are a conscious being of unknown origin, in a universe unfathomably vast. you live on one planet, orbiting one star, in one galaxy, in THE UNIVERSE. we actually have theorys on how the universe was created! now thats amazing, thats divine, that is consciousness. take a moment to realize the power you weild, by being conscious of the universe, you have the power to destroy the universe. and savor it!
by conforming to one persons revelations you become sheeple, which is exactly what the institutions in religion want, your money and your influence behind there contrived corrupt agendas. thats settles the church(an institution), now the prophets behind religions like christianity are simply individuals who had there own philosophy of god. but to blindly follow one persons IDEAS of god and worship them. that is worship of a false idol, you should be looking at the natural world, and inside your self to find YOUR OWN answers, to what is truly divine. that being said, we are all truly agnostic, i hope people take this to heart and start looking for there own answers. all of the material world, inanimate and animate objects alike, are creations of a force, and that force is the divine. to understand the nature of that force, look into the nature of all things! michael if your still reading this blog i hope this brings you closer to the truth that matters so much to you.
we are all one organism of the same unknown origin to fight about the unchanging truth is fruitless, and will be the downfall of us all. why fight about something where you have no standing. and for humanitys sake dont be sheeple!

Anonymous said...

1. find me one place that mentions JESUS CHRIST other then the "Holy Bible" and maybe i'll take you seriously. jesus christ, not just christ.
2. you must be a bible thumper. because seriously. give your fucking head a shake. all the shit about "miracles" and all the stories about what he did and didnt do are fucking made up to make him seem like a person that existed. what part of that dont u understand. the fact that there is no historical record other then one book full of stories, not facts. STORIES. makes any "god" seem completely out to fucking lunch.
3. i went to catholic school and i knew it was bullshit back then.
4. america sucks.

eric said...

AMERICA DOES NOT SUCK! the nation is run by a bunch of fucked up ppl. if we still used our original system of government this would still be the greatest country. America and the things it stands for... well, used to stand for, are noble and just. we the people are at fault for letting ignorance guide our minds. it only takes a little knowledge to know that knowledge itself is the greatest force for fighting tyranny. the ideal tyranny is that which is self administered by the populace. you must open your mind to your own consciousness, realize that having knowledge does nothing if you dont use it! to truly open your mind you must feel something larger than yourself. what a better tool to use than drugs, also realize that the drugs you get from a doctor are the same that grow from the ground. see the pharmacratic inquisition, DO YOU THINK APPLES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR DUALISTIC CONSCIOUSNESS, find out why there not. a little knowledge goes a long way, but to transcend knowledge into that long way(life), you must see it from the outside looking in. the world is due for spiritual aweking with the come of the new age(aquiaris), and if we dont open our eyes to that awakening, the New World Order has triumphed. the NWO represents our failure to ourselves, if it ever assumes power it means we had the knowlegde to stop it but we failed to act on that knowledge. ying and yang, of course if the NWO sucseeds there will be a bloody revolution, those who are skeptic, dont be open your mind apply your knowledge.

Anonymous said...

There was Christianity in Kerala, a state in South India (called Nasrani), from a verifiable date of 345 CE and a suspected 52 CE(St. Thomas??) and though split into many groups, still exists today. I do not say that there is no pagan influence in Christianity, but I think the fact that this could have happened before the claimed 'paganization' and 'making up jesus story' was complete makes it less possible to believe this zeitgeist conspiracy theory absolutely. If it was, then we could have seen significant differences with the west in terms of beliefs, but there is none. (Though there are differences in traditions)

Anonymous said...

dude, you're an idiot.

Anonymous said...

Intelligent Christian. That is a greater oxymoron than Military Intelligence.

Anonymous said...

There is no doubt that my own commitment to Christ (and Buddha, and ahimsa/Jainism and several other manifestations of Divine Principle) is not rational; I'd just like to be in a world where spirit/soul are real...its preferable to just being reduced to "dust in the wind."

But at least I know that it's my wish, my hope, my fervent desire...and not rational, or evidentiary, at all.

If you don't know that, you're crippled in any analysis you might offer. There's nothing rational, or scientific, about faith...it is DEFINITIVELY belief sans proof!

Anonymous said...

Here is a complete and thorough refutation of part one.


http://www.preventingtruthdecay.org/zeitgeistpartone.shtml

Don Juan said...

also; sirius and the three kings. in the bible it doesnt say how much kings came from the east, and in many other translations the bible is not talking about kings, but about 'wise men'. when they wouldve followed sirius they would've went east and that would've made them coming from the west...

the 25th isnt jesus birthday in the bible. we just celebrate it then because of germanic tribes having the feast of lights. since the shepherds were lying in the fields we asume jesus was born in summer, because in winter the sheep would've been in the stables.

also that jesus says that they should go to the man with the water thingy. its out of context. its a very practical phrase, not philosophical in any way. its like: jesus told his desciples to get bread, chocolate, milk, two fish and coca cola in the store. OOOH! TWO FISH!

anyway. the part about nine eleven is true though!

pam said...

I wish Zeitgeist ended with part I, the most credible part and easiest to comprehend for most people. It must be very difficult if not impossible for those of you to learn that Christianity is, and has always been nothing but a complete fraud. It is a self perpetuating myth that has enveloped our society and with the conflict of other religions, threatens humanity itself.

Christianity is not based on truth. It is a Roman story based on a “standard myth” that was developed politically for social control by the Emperor Constantine and the Vatican. It supports blind submission to authority. It reduces human responsibility because ‘god controls everything.’ Any and all atrocities can be justified under such submission to religion.

Humanity is at a crossroad. Hopefully reason will win out over ignorance and dark age belief systems. Because, in this age, mankind controls space age weaponry at the same time holding fervent religious myths from the dark ages.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure how the makers of that movie see the world moving forward from here. War? Bloodshed? Revolution? No thanks, I have a wife, a young baby and a career that is only now starting to pay the rent after a lifetime of effort!

I couldn't be bothered to suddenly become a theological researcher or a serious researcher in all the other topics the movie touches on. Neither am I willing to kill others that cling to different beliefs.

Civilisation has built up an enormous bank of practical knowledge and ability under the structure and support of government and religion. As I understand it the foundations for almost all learning and record keeping have their origins in religion (whether pagan or not).

But I do think that people are becoming disassociated with nature and each other. Is there a reason why worshipping nature is insufficient? (and I don't mean in some hippy/wood nymph kind of way) We're all a part of it, it will never be completely understood and it's responsible for our being here.

David said...

OK I watched the whole film and agree with those of you who said this was just a piece to start people thinking. As far as Christianity is concerned i.e. part 1, The important thing is the separation of the historical person Jesus and the stories about his birth and death etc. It seems there is credible basis to believe there was a charismatic preacher who defied the political and religeous leadership of his time who was done away with by the political elite. The teachings of jesus seems a good enough reason for large numbers of the disenfranchised to follow this charismatic leader. The problem arises when Christianity's publicists thought it was useful to use pre-existing myths to making Jesus into a god figure - things like the virgin birth, the 3 kings, Magi, resurection, miricles are totally irrelevant and actually divert the attention from the teachings of the historical Jesus which in part screems out against a corrupt religeous leadership, It would probably be the funniest thing that Jesus ever heard if he was told that those in the vatican or the orthodox churches in any way were preaching his message

blogger said...

thanks for your responses--
this movie draws conclusions from made-up information and seems to have inside knowledge of history with out any researchers or references ? -- it's like trying to prove cold fusion with a coloring book.

blogger said...

thanks for your responses--
this movie draws conclusions from made-up information and seems to have inside knowledge of history with out any researchers or references ? -- it's like trying to prove cold fusion with a coloring book.

William said...

The references are up and the annotated transcript will be up soon. The realization that christianity is based on a standard myth is not new, Thomas Paine wrote that 200 yrs ago.

Anonymous said...

Nobody said Jesus was a Myth.....Just that the influence he had over the people was distorted by the power of the time and ever since. The video was very correct and brief. There are many religions and cultures all over the world who have these same common factors. The world works like a batoned race and always has been. Religion being the media of the times.
If you haven't woke up yet to the truths of the ages then you need to put your ear to tracks and research. "Believe in nothing, yet Believe in everything" "To understand you must first standunder"....The wise know they know nothing....It may take pain and greef for the lazy to wake up but it doesn't have to. With the globalization of the world through the internet, the people must come together and make THEM stand down.

Peace & Luv
Joshua 12/21/2012

SHIFT HAPPENS!!

Anonymous said...

If you're hungry for truth, feed yourself. Because most likely others will feed you bullshit.

Start here:

http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html

Anonymous said...

Lol your ignorance is funny!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_comparative_mythology

Read it and weep!

Jonathan said...

You call yourself a scholar? Your arguments are several forms of NUH UH and they lie! You have no intellectual argument for any of the claims. You are blindly faithful to the bible, which, by the way is also "NOT an academic work and has ZERO credibility" other than the all time greatest ignorant term - faith. I challenge you to try reading the bible again as if it were written by a group of people that seek to control the masses.

chase said...

Nice comments, Jonathan. I read basically all of these posts and am still confused by every one of michael's rebuttles. You said it best: the bible is also "NOT an academic work and has ZERO credibility." I find it comical that the only answer for the religous of the world is "FAITH"...which is beyond ignorant. the word faith is simply an answer for people who don't want to hear a real one. I could use that word an any context.."i used to be a god..i know this because i have faith." cool...start worshiping me.

and by the way...stop using horus as your only arguement. maybe a couple of the things said in zeitgeist about horus are up for rebuttle to christians. But what about everything else in the movie..the other messiah figures from around the world that held the same characteristics. the Noah's ark reference. Moses.."manou, mises, moses" SAME STORY. the fact is that there was a basic myth created by our earliest ancestors, and many religions of the world have adapted this myth with their own special twists.

a couple random thoughts...

-to believe a religion that is widely known to have thrown out random books/passages based on pure interest of the society in that time in history...IGNORANT.

-i would not want to go to the christian's version of the afterlife, nor can i imagine that anybody would once they actually thought about it. i like dogs, having sex with girls, alcohal, marijuana:), sports,etc. oh and masterbation..come the fuck on. NO JACKING OFF..good luck, christians. have a good heaven filled only with people who are just like you and have everything in common with everyone else.

-religion is the cause for most wars since the beginning of recorded human history. no religion--no wars.

*bottom line:: stop using faith/religion as an easy answer to why we are here. we will probably never know why or how we are here, but lets stop believing the myths that were put here by our recent ancestors. the world is not 12,000 years old...to believe this is foolish. The first people of earth analyzed the sun and stars, moon and their habits..sign of the zodiac. nobody can argue that as false. open up your mind to TRUTH...don't back up your rebuttles on the bible and only the bible. "i know it's true cuz the bible says it is"..."jesus loves me, this i know. because the bible tells me so"...so, ya...enjoy that false sense of security.

ps: PhD students should be smart and think critically...not just in certain aspects of life..but all aspects. Dont believe something simply because you have been brought up/ in a way forced to believe it. Think critically and therefore correctly, and do CORRECT research. You're smarter than this bro..let's get serious here.

-chase

chase said...

oh, and william...nice call on the Thomas Paine quote. It is definately true that this whole idea is not new...but it goes even further.. FAR beyond 200 years ago. Since the beginning of adapted religion of Christianity, unlike what michael said out of pure unknowing and sadness that it could be true, the exhistance of a "Jesus Christ" has even been argued. Look it up..but not in the bible. the bible is a little prejudice:) Either believe the 30+ historians that did not even mention anything about jesus christ, even though they lived in and around his supposed life; or you can believe the few who happened to mention the word "christ" and the 1 who has been proved wrong for centuries that christains time and time again will keep referencing...soooooo ignorant that its funny to think how easily people can be fucked.

whatever though...people are either intelligent or they are not. there is no being smart in one thing and completely ignorant in another..this simply means that you are not.

-chase

chris said...

it seems religion has worked again. everyone is talking about it. damn it...did you miss the part about our country being hijacked through the federal reserve system? open your eyes (if you missed that symbol) and concentrate on the things that our really affecting us. jesus who? damn it. damn it all off the face of the earth. let us not toil over 2000 year old OPINION. faith my ass. geezzz. lets rather focus on current events that could rather have something to do with our physical well-being. im not talking about a promised after-life. THESE ARE OUR LIVES!!!! WAKE UP!!!!
the idea of heaven diverts us from really making this world what it should be. dont wait until you die. make heaven here you damn fools.

Kyle said...

You hit on an important word Jonathan, Faith. But you incorrectly apply it to religion. Faith is something we all do everyday whether it be believing that little yellow lines are going to keep you safe from on-coming traffic or that the science you're being taught actually plays out in reality. The key that actuates faith is trust. You have faith in what you believe to be true because you've seen it play out in time and therefore think it will continue to play out that way. Likewise someone who reads the Bible and has faith in it may also have the veracity of the book tested by their own experiences only to find it true or untrue. The best thing any of us can do is to let others believe what they will (meaning don't judge others- a biblical idea) and truly test the things we say we believe in and see whose beliefs make a better life.
Faith is not a religious word, it's a human word, and I believe that it is a product of our ability to think into the future.

Kyle

Anonymous said...

This is my first post so I'm not one of the anonymous' from above. First, I don't think anywhere (even the Bible) tells us what date Jesus was born on....so Horus being born on Dec 25 shouldn't be even a point of argument, unless I'm totally wrong and there actually is evidence to back that up. Another thing, I think that the stars alignment and such was created as a foreshadow of Jesus coming, because God did, after all, create the stars. Just my beliefs, I don't have any evidence to back it up, although I would like to know if I'm wrong on the Dec 25th thing.

Anonymous said...

To the blogger, your doing exactly what you claim the movie maker to be doing...not giving evidence to support your opinion. Just saying that is a lie doesnt cut it if you want to prove a point...

Anonymous said...

hahaha I cant believe anyone believes this hogwash which was obviously planted by the devil. The real evidense is in the bible.

Keep the faith because Jesus loves you and will burn you for an eternity if you do not repent your sins and except him as the undeniable truth. Listen to the "evidense". kthxbye

Anonymous said...

I would love to rant on here but i have a life but i what i will say a movie such as this is not meant to discourage anyone from anything if you truly believe in someting you will not stop doing something because of a movie unless you are of weak will but this movie was designed to get people thinking which is something TV Does not inspire us to do let me correct that THINKING FOR OURSELVES is what its purpose is so you may argue about whats right and wrong when you missed the purpose

A great writer

Anonymous said...

I believe this movie may be correct,in that Christianity may be a plagiarized myth I think that Christianity and other religions separate us, all religions are in fact a lie. We are no more important than any other living creature on the face of this planet. We believe what we choose to believe.
We are doing exactly what this blogger is claiming the movie maker to be doing...not giving evidence to support our opinions.

William Shafer said...

Anonymous said...

"I believe this movie may be correct,in that Christianity may be a plagiarized myth I think that Christianity and other religions separate us, all religions are in fact a lie. We are no more important than any other living creature on the face of this planet. We believe what we choose to believe.
We are doing exactly what this blogger is claiming the movie maker to be doing...not giving evidence to support our opinions."

I think this person guy/girl is correct. for the past few centuries everything has been about fame and fortune no one has cared About anyone else's well being beyond they're immediate family i believe and everything coming out of newspapers and television is a fat lie this hypocrisy.

Anonymous said...

This blog site is owned by a Prof of Theology. Well, duh! No independent assessment here, move along.
JC is clearly a fiction. (Virgin birth....gimme a break) The Prof wants to keep his job, so he has to buy in to the mythology EVEN as the tsunami of science devistates the Jesus fiction day by day.

Mike said...

This is just poorly done prof. Those sources you've provided are ridiculous, and you're the one claiming to be so academic with your arrogant opening line. Nice attempt to direct the opinions of your readers.

Anyway, to those reading this. Do the research yourself and you'll find a lot of paralells that this guy poorly attempts to denounce. I just quickly found this site which talks a of "magical birth" http://www.egyptianmyths.net/horus.htm. Sure, not a virgin birth, but this article once again tries to direct it's readers opinions with the line "Horus was not born of a Virgin--that's a lie.".

Anyway, don't send your children to learn under this guy. He's in denial.

Fearsofsyn said...

Ok someting for people to think about

If we or you are a christian why have you not done anything to stand up against the war in iraq or any war on that matter

isnt killing a sin?

i could be wrong but i dont rember there being a part exluding well killing for your president in the name of fighting against ____ is right

im pretty sure there is not a loophole

Lisa said...

In all seriousness, why does all this matter? What's the difference if Jesus existed or not? I am genuinely interested in all your personal answers to this question... And please don't say 'because many people live their lives by Jesus' way'... I want to know why...

Fearsofsyn said...

Well in my opinion Lisa it is that people are weak and cannot live their life with out being told what to do a set of rules

If people were strong and self governing on their own then we would not have a need for religion or for government and yes i do believe when you refer to one they go hand in hand

or at least they use to but they have both been responsible for almost any conspiracy theory known to man. So you have to think weather or not man created religion or not in a way to control the Vatican for example at one time had as much power as the king. The great kings new this and wanted to put an end to this and now the government has absolute power.

A democracy now is a dictatorship lead by a handful of rich people who only seek more riches.

That is basically my ramble on that
your question is answered at the beginning I suggest you watch a true documentary on what Anarchy really is I know that I would love to live in an Anarchist society or maybe even Socialist they seem more peaceful

Lisa said...

That is the answer I had in mind. I feel that instead of worrying about a man that may or may not have lived thousands of years ago, surely its better to live day by day? Religion is a total waste of time in my view. It's an excuse for bad behaviour, it's an avoidance of responsibility for ourselves - our actions and our own lives.

Anonymous said...

We live in a sad world. The 30 yrs old and younger generations are a generation that has lost track of values and respect. Look at your posts, full of hatred and disrespect. That is exactly what religion is all about, to help you guys be happy and fill your heart with joy and harmony. You say you want peace in Iraq, but what about peace in your heart? Your souls hurt. You're lonely and lost. Tonight I will pray for all of you who are mixed up inside. I hope you find your way.

Anonymous said...

Dude, the sites you sent us two gave us little information about Horus.

Even then it was biased information from chirstian sites!

How could you be like "It's not true" when it's completely biased and provides no information or facts that say it isn't true. All it says is "IT ISNT TRUE".

It's a load of shit.

Anonymous said...

"this book is NOT an academic work and has ZERO credibility"
I like how you say that because there is no source for the information that it means that the work is a lie and is false. Just like the bible and other religious works that are "the words of god" but written by man. Not even including the nice language barrier for ultimate thoughts.

CM_onlgler said...

HAHA, CHRISTFAGS GET PWNZORED ON THEIR OWN SITE, EPIC.

Anonymous said...

Even if the sources are false or the information incorrect about hourus there are multiple other connections and connections to the zodiac ,such as the cross, that you cannot just blindly ignore. You are being closeminded by letting your rage consume you because your god is being insulted. I am not saying you are right nor wrong but I am saying you need to think things though more before going crazy and maybe open your mind. Disproving one or two small features of this video does not mean that it is false. For example if you take one beam out of a building it dosnt fall, you destablized it but you still lack the nessicary information to proceed in demolishing it. And I would also like to add you said that the book "the christ conspericy" has zero adecmic credit , yet the bible was all written on eye accounts by hundreds of people and you call that creditablity? Thousands of people claim to see ghosts or UFOS yet do you belive in either?
www.zeitgeistmovie.com Long live the idea of opening your mind to new things.

Anonymous said...

Oh and in additon I do not have a account here but my Name Is Zachary Stephens and my Email is tokyopop65@yahoo.com . if you would like to further this debate or get more information i would gladly like to help and decide weither this is truth or fiction so email me there.

Anonymous said...

You keep sputtering on things and disclaiming them with "its a lie". But have you any real proof? the so called sources you gave us did not have information to DISPROVE the theory but just lacked information in general. its as if they didnt know or did not find out, rather than they disclaimed. On Zeitgeistmovie.com they say that information cannot be found by just simply searching google and yet you think that you can disprove them when you yourself said this part was "just off the top of your head".
And I thought i might bring up a age old question, how do you explain dinosaur bones?
did the devil put them there? to confuse us?
Just like he lined up the "3 king" stars to point at the "birth of the sun" to confuse us?
You cannot hide forever behind your blind screamings of the devils work.

Anonymous said...

why do you even belive that god did all these mircles? do you belive in magic? Because all i see here is what can be known or identifyed as a type of "magic". We dont belive it rained gravy or anything or any of the old things such as gods of wheat blessing us, so why belive this rediculous thing?

Anonymous said...

The creator of Zeitgeist has finally posted a full interactive transcript to the religion section here:

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/transcript.htm

Anonymous said...

Okay lets face it, details aside, does any clinically sane person actually believe that a king was born of a virgin, turned water into wine and rose from the dead? I mean, I understand it if people congregate for rituals, but the details of religion are myth, whichever way you defend them.
Concentrate on loving one another. Jesus mythical Christ!

Tom said...

Listen, you're really confused as to what's academic and what's not. Academically speaking, there is very, VERY little known about Jesus. Yes, his existence is mentioned, albeit briefly, by both Tacitus and Josephus, but there is absolutely no historical evidence as to his divinity or his "virgin" mother. Those assumptions come from the bible, i.e. NOT a historical document. My apologies if this comes as a shock.

In addition, do you think this movie is the only source that claims Christianity is rooted largely in pagan myth? Absolutely not. Noted theologists, SCHOLARS, have written about it for more than a hundred years. The biggest problem with this movie is not its questionable content, but rather its lack of originality.

Listen, I have no problem with those that have faith. But don't dare confuse faith with academic evidence, as it only serves to make you look dumb. Yes, Jesus was a historically known being. Beyond that, NO evidence exists to suggest that he was the "son of god."

Anonymous said...

I do not believe in God. Plain and simple. I just don't believe in this higher entity that created us and gave us life. I am currently watching the movie online, but just started. As for Jesus, I do not take the Bible as a historical source for all those "miracles" he did.

Mr. Spray said...

Listen, it's this simple:

1.GWB is an evil and manipulative sociapath that regards people as cattle. (so is every other politician.) He probably did take down the WTC. But hey, when in Rome
play your fiddle.

2.The catholic church is full of sh!t. Read Jeremiah 10 regarding "Christmas","easter" is simply a bastardized passover festival replete with pagan imagery (bunnies ,eggs)Thanks Mickeys!.

3.The catholic church, began the corruption and destruction of christianity and the neo-con evangelical movement are continuing it.

4. Having an ordinary man like the pope and making him "infallible" goes against what the bible says. "there is none that are good,save for God"

5. Zeitgeist is a movie made for pseudo- intellectuals and little kids, so they can feel superior to others while most, NEVER HAVING ACTUALLY READ the most historically signifigant document of all time (ie: the Bible aka: the septuagent aka jewish texts dated as far back 300 b.c.) consider themselves enlightened. (with regards to historical signifigance I mean it's place in history.)

6. People will kill and control each other with any ideal regardless of whether or not it has to do with God (see Communism, racism, and football) its in our nature. If religion never existed Zeitgeist would be about hot-dogs.

and 7. the only thing more ironic and self-serving than militant christianity, is militant atheism.

Anonymous said...

Bravo.

Adam said...

Part 1 is not saying Jesus didnt exist (christ)..it is saying that there has been many 'christs' (the annointed one). The annointed one is the annointed one for THAT AGE. Jesus was the annointed one for the Pisces age...who will be the annointed one for the age of Aquarius. We'll have to wait and see. Its not saying Jesus did not exist, because he most probably did. It says that most of the christs are based on the same thing (born of a virgin, dec 25th etc.). Although the critic who wrote this saying that the Horus facts are untrue..there is more physical evidence Horus existed than there is Jesus.

Anonymous said...

2000 years of history, and we've been fooled all this time. I'm really glad the enlightened Ancharya S has come along and sorted things out for all of us. She must be really smart. Christianity only sprang and entire civilization, the most successful in human history. Perhaps Ancharya S is the new saviour. Now THAT would be a let down.

I ask you this, which would be more astonishing: to find out if life exists on another planet, or to find out if life does not exist on another planet.

The latter would be much more compelling to me.

Anonymous said...

Does not the Bible clearly state that Satan (once Lucifer) cleverlt disguises himself as an angel of light? Is there any wonder then that there would be a pasting of myths over the Gospel accounts? The Gospels DO NOT say that Jesus was born at the Winter Solstice, nor so they say that Sunday is the Sabbath! This is FALSE RELIGION pasting itself OVER TOP of the TRUTH. Also, do not be suprised to find that pre-christian myths are RE-WRITTEN to cloak themselves as "angels of light"!

You either BELIEVE in Jesus Christ OR you DON'T. And, after what the religious zealots of the day did to Jesus... it all fits! I believe! After all, everything Jesus warns us about in Revelation is FOUND in the rest of the Zeitgeist Movie (One World Government, the Mark of the Beast, Control of the Economy, etc.).

Remember these words of comfort from our ONLY Savior: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Amen.

Anonymous said...

you know what? i personally do not believe the horus mumbo jumbo, the zeitgeist movie, or that Jesus did not exist. and i dont care what you think either, because in the Bible (which i strongly believe in) it says that after you hear about it all, what you do with it is up to you thats why GOD gave us free will, believe or not, but atleast you have heard it, you know it, and if you think its a load of crap thats okay. you wont know the truth until its far too late, i believe. i guess thats how it is for all of us. thats why there is faith. dont worry about everyone else, just worry about yourself, spread the word of Jesus Christ, let them do what they want with it and bounce out :D

Anonymous said...

Anybody can get a book published or a video made and say whatever they want. That doesn't make it true..... Like the bible...

rickdog said...

I always go to the Randi Foundation whenever I need to understand the real truth behind conspiracy theories. The debate is with expert skeptics who focus on the scientific method, religion really doesn't fit that mold but most of the logic used there is quite applicable. Read what they have to say about Zeitgeist here:

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/JREF?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&q=zeitgeist&spell=1

and the excellent first forum on "Loose Change, a progenitor of Zeitgeist.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53102

Anonymous said...

Religion itself is a debatable subject and has been for many many many years. It's, in my opinion, up to the person themselves to take what they have learned over the course of their lives and to determine what is truth what is false and what is left up to question. What I will write will be based on my opinion.

Having said that, we are conditioned from the time we are able to memorize and understand to belive what is put infront of us. But to sit idly by and not question it, when given the ability to, is choosing to remain ignorant. Because to the ignorant believing anything otherwise is... well...taboo. For example an american woman might think of the Karen woman "Why on earth would a woman think that wearing rings on her neck to stretch it out makes her beautiful? (which has been proven the rings dont actually stretch out the neck but rather pushes down on the collar bone, as well as the upper ribs, to such an angle that the collar bone actually appears to be a part of the neck, just a little fyi) while the Karen woman looks at the american woman and thinks "why on earth would you think that big huge humongous boobs are beautiful?" Some people dont understand why people do what they do and if its not what they have learned, if its different, if it threatens to change what they know and love, then it is to be denounced. THAT in itself is ignorance.

The whole point of the movie is to point out that we have choice, and that choice, that freedom is in threat of being taken away from us (if we have any left in the first place). Think of what will happen if this chip is implemented. If a blog was made like this, we who protest would have our chips removed from us, left to be outcasts of the society, and imagine what they could do to us. Do you think they would let us roam around in the underground,possibly building up a group to start a revolt against them? NO! They would wipe us out. Possibly with biological warfare. Say they release a virus onto the populus, but your safe as long as you have this chip, just go get vaccinated. But what if you dont...what happens to you then...how about your children (if you have any)what happens to them...do these people really care what happens to you? Or maybe they would torture us to the point where we reconform. Think of North Korea. How they believe, or are made to say what a wonderful leader Kim Jong Il is. They arent alowed to say anything bad about him because if they do, not only will that one person, but the whole family will be tortured, or killed. And generation after generation grow up like this, beliving what is told to them,what they see on tv, what they read in books, everything being made to make you belive what the ruler/s want you to. Is that what we want? For the whole world? THIS IS WHAT THE MOVIE TRIES TO GET YOU TO DO, TO THINK ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF THESE THINGS, TO CONSIDER IT RATHER THAN TO SIT AT YOUR TELEVISION AND BELIVE WHAT IS BEING FED TO YOU!

Think about the bible for a second. Why would the lord god creat a book that constantly contradicts itself and sit by and say...dont question it, just go with it.
Could that be god? Or maby the government saying "Look we didnt say it GOD did, and if GOD says dont question it...then dont"
But ....why not question it??
Its the devil and he's trying to mislead you, stray you from the light, from the truth, search your heart and you will find god and he will let you know what is the truth and what is blasphemy!"

But what if whats said in the bible is truth and everything presented to me is, infact a test of faith....its a damn hard test.

Think of what happened to Galileo, how his astronomy could have disproved a god. They sent him to trial and made him denounce his claims. Think of the INQUISITION! What God would instruct his children (or put the notion in ones head)to FORCE his religion upon others, so fiercley that people were tortured to submission? And if they didnt they were killed. And by not accepting the religion they were doomed to hell. Not The god that loves all his children....not the almighty forgiving GOD. Government ploy right? Using his name to scare the populus into submission, and when that didnt work the threat of death? Or maybe they really were trying to save the souls of many?

What makes them using the bible any different. Say the word is true, but they twist it and mold it to mean something else, and they get their ministrys, their churches to pound this into your head and brainwash you down your generation, so much that anything suggesting that the word of the bible may be plagarized or put together like a puzzle spurs a fire in your heart that reaches down into your soul and maks it burn with anger as you think HOW DARE YOU THINK THAT! HOW DARE YOU EVEN INSINUATE THAT! BLASPHEMOUS! UNTRUTH! LIES!!
How can you tell whose being lied to...especially when its what youve known to be true your whole life....
what is the truth....

The whole point is to say OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE AND LOOK AT THE WORLD AROUND YOU! TAKE A LOOK AT WHATS HAPPENING AND REALIZE IT FOR WHAT IT IS BEFORE YOUR CHILDREN AND THIER CHILDREN ARE CONFORMED TO LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE NOTHING IS FREE, WHERE PRIVACTY AND OPINIONS ARE OVERRATED! WHERE THEY MELD AND MOLD YOUR MINDS FOR YOU! WE ARE ALMOST THERE PEOPLE! WAKE UP AND BREAK FREE OF YOUR CHAINS BEFORE WE ARE TOO DEEP IN THIS BECOMES IRREVERSIBLE!
But then again who am I to say anything? Maybe my words can make a difference...maybe not. But know this, everything that I have written, anything that anyone has written, is of things that they have learned..... things that have been conditioned and molded into their brain.
I disected what i leared and formed may own opinion....
Your opinion is what you make of it.

Your opinion....that will be taken away, but not by force. No. You will give it away, if you so choose to remain ignorant, If you choose to conform.
So what if this movie isnt the truth? What if it is? Belive what you will, this movie is simply something put forth infront of us people to be considered, so we can be prepared if it is infact truth, so we can stand up and do something about it...or not.

*ME*

Anonymous said...

It doesn't matter what you believe, only your actions count. Be kind. Be kind. Be kind.

And yes, Bush is the devil.

rickdog said...

from *ME*
"Having said that, we are conditioned from the time we are able to memorize and understand to belive what is put infront of us."
---

Hmmm, sounds exactly like what happens when you go to church, you've given an apt description for religious dogma.

The huge problem with this video is that is a recycling of parts from previous videos, and no attribution is even given for the parts lifted wholesale from previous works. The editor of Zeitgeist actually took whole clips of "The God Who Wasn't There" for the first part, various 9/11 CT movies for the second part (e.g. "Loose Change"), and Aaron Russo's From Freedom to Fascism for the third. This and other CT works have been thoroughly debunked over the year and just are not credible.

I'm thoroughly tired of being told that I'm being controlled by shadowy elites, it's all so ridiculous.

Sociologist Frank Furedi of the University of Kent warns that this simplistic worldview of conspiracy thinking displaces critical engagement with public life and instead replaces it with a destructive search for hidden motives, for the story behind the story as a way of avoiding larger core issues.

Anonymous said...

Hmm... I read the start of this and skipped the rest because quite frankly it's very long. Anyway, I just thought I'd say this in regards to the 9/11 thing.
There are the people who say it was a conspiracy, and there are the people who say that there's no evidence for such a thing, claiming that it's complete conspiracy theorist bullshit. The question I have is, if you're the "head" of the allegedly most powerful government in the world, why not sacrifice a few thousand ordinary lives to further your own interests? I mean, power corrupts right? So the people with the power are by definition corrupt. Why is it such a "shocker" that these people wouldn't care who dies if it means their war can be rolled out that much easier? I think your average joe is having trouble wrapping their minds around the fact that these people don't care about you, your family or the town you live in (with the possible exception of your consumer value). It's a different reality at the top. You must think about things from an impersonal point of view. 9/11 may or may not have been set up by the "people in the shadows", but let's not delude ourselves into thinking those in power wouldn't do something similar if they thought the risk was worth the reward. Besides, the public just censors itself afterwards by claiming that such things are "too much like the movies and don't happen in real life". Right.

Anonymous said...

HI all, iv gone through this blog and watched the movie. I am a believer, I follow two simple rules: love God and love your neighbour. Various teaching's in my life, personal contemplation, a university education (Trent), and some weed (yes, a believer in Jesus Christ smokes the good stuff) brought me to this belief. love God, love your neighbour.
ok, so those are my silly “ CHRIST-FAG” beliefs. people are we still name calling?
I know the catholic church (no capitals needed) has done unspeakable things in the name of God, however, I do not support the catholic church or anything about that religion, including and not limited to Marry/pope/purgatory. Even my Bible is tainted from their past control, I use the Bible with that knowledge in-mind, that they governed its formation. However, you cant really alter teachings on love, love is love baby, I don’t think there is anything wrong with showin it a little.
I sure wish Bush held these views, good thing im CANADIAN! Unfortunately my country will be absorbed into the US according to Zeitgeist’s predictions. Yikes that scares me, id have to pay for health care!
Zeitgeist highlights how the roman catholic church used Jesus Christ to control Europe, based on past pagan beliefs... which is exactly what they wanted and why it was done. It eased the converting process, that why we sing happy b-day to Jesus on the 25th, its not biblical its just part of the catholic control process like most of that religious doctrine. You have to get at the root of Christianity you have to get to the LOVE to fully understand Christ’s teachings.

-Tyler the CHRIST-FAG

Anonymous said...

I haven't looked for it yet, but I'm sure somewhere there is an discussion about the second or third part of Zeitgeist. Here we have people who believe in religion, people who don't, and people in between who think they know the facts. There is no perfect unbiased perspective. Arguing about something that none of us witnessed is ridiculous. Im just saying that you CANT be 100% sure of things. being a 100% believer is being ignorant, being a 0% believer is the same. the only neutral people are the ones who are indifferent. not the ones who name the facts and have an opinion on em.

Before watching Zeitgeist, i knew religion was for power, thats still what I think. The documentary wanted us to figure out things for ourselves and look at what everyone who posted before is doing. We are discussing a worldwide phenomenon that has never been challenged like it has been today. Zeitgeist is definitely successful in conveying its message.

Bloodeye said...

Wake up... There is no God and 9/11 was an inside job!

Jeana said...

The owner of this bog is so brainwashed it is sick.... Hello she needs to study metaphysics some more if she can not find her answers, email the director moron to get an easy answer since that is what religion is. Become conscious humans of today let knowledge lead you to search for your own truth rather than listening to ignorant people such as this author of this text above.. congratulations to the ones who choose to live and leave a legacy of change to do something which we animals can do that is to .... THINK.....

rickdog said...

Jeana, you're the one that's not thinking. Do you believe in UFO's and that they live under the earth in secret bases and that we are in danger of emminent attack from them? If you do, why, because someone told you so? I think if you do believe that that you need to verify, and by verifying I don't mean going to other wacky UFO sites to support your belief, you need to be exposed to debates between people on opposing sides. By the way, Alex Jones (prisonplanet.com), the leading light of the 9-11 conspiracy crowd, is the guy in the 90s who tried to convince us that space aliens were living in the earth and were about to attack us. When you do some real investigation you'll find just what a bunch of nuts the truthers are.

Anonymous said...

I honestly believe that the inclusion of an "explanation" of some religions...more specifically Christianity in this film is not just to demonstrate the point of how we all can be controlled by something or someone...but is more specifically:

A ruse to keep us from focusing on the other parts of the film that could be debunked rather easily.

My point is...this film could've stood on it's own without part 1 altogether. In fact, when you look at the other parts and their correlation to one another...the first part actually stands out as being a "stretch" in terms of relation to the other parts.

Lastly, and more importantly...inclusion of part 1 will no doubt "steer" the conversation/debate away from devling deeper into the other parts. Just look at this thread and most other threads involving this film throughout the internet. You get some debate going about the film on the whole...but then every debate/conversation gets hung up on Christianity. An enormous amount of energy is spent on both sides...debating religion...all the while, the other parts fall by the wayside.

I would've loved to see how threads would've evolved if this film didn't include part 1 at all. It might've been easier to tell what is truth and not...what is fact and fiction...what parts should be researched further and whatnot...but alas...we'll probably never know.

Which, for me, has to be on purpose. Part 1 was included in order to help muddy the water.

Anonymous said...

fuck all of you. and give me a fuckin beer after your done

- Josh

thedewar said...

Hi. I just spent an afternoon of general mindfuckedness going through zeitgeist, reading up on references, rebuttals, whatever. I am a Christian/Christ-fag/whatever you want to call it. This movie is quite interesting and i really truly enjoy the fact that i had to think today :). What Christianity and my Judeo/Christian concept of God always boils down to is faith. Through all things we see that (atleast in my opinion) there is not and never has been any completely cut and dry logical thought associated with my faith. That is why it is faith. Life comes down to a supreme question of why, in all things. Everything at its most rudimentary level comes down to why. Electrons orbit around a nucleus, why? Because of the properties of their own miniscule quarks, why? why? why? why? why do i wake up this morning? why do i help or not help another person? why do i further society or try to destroy it? why do i love? why do i create? why do i express? why do i anything? For myself it comes down to a simple concept of God being that answer.

God will always come down to faith, we see quite clearly that God leaves a hint of unexplainability in all things. He is the answer to that little hint, atleast for myself. We see many scholars of his day no mentioning Jesus, yet a few do... now if there was no Christ this wouldn't be an issue, there wouldn't be a mention. However if every scholar of the day mentioned the miraculous accounts of Christ then it wouldn't come down to faith. There would be no doubt and in turn no faith. We cannot have faith if there is not some doubt. However we cannot believe in something if it is completely untrue. We see through the bible that this is consitent with the character of God. He is not a God of a blazing sign across the sky. But a God who reveals himself enough to each person suttley and in small ways so that they must have faith. If God wanted blind obedience it seems fathomable that he could indeed create that. However as hard as anyone tries there is still enough evidence for Jesus and for God's existence for a person to need faith to believe. God is a balance of fact and faith, doubt and truth, control and free-will.

A. Frickin Nonymous said...

Believe what you will about the Zeitgeist movie, I just think it was made by God, just to test your faith.

Anonymous said...

It is unfortunate that those who have spent their lives "Devoted" are blinded by their predjudices. It is not completely your fault as you have been raised to believe, but if you truely open your eyes without pre-judgements you will realize that organized theology is no more than Myths passed down and used as a form of control. You cannot exspect to refute 2000 years of documentated stories in 2 short hours, but the film does tend to lean towards a more modern aproach to the world that we live in.

thedewar said...

This is what my theo prof wrote me:
found the website you mentioned and skimmed through the transcript referring to the Jesus/Horus connection. There's nothing new in this theory first proposed more than a hundred years ago by a poet named Gerald Massey (though I'd thought it debunked, it seems to "resurrect" itself now and then). I'm not sure that the author isn't practicing a bit of "shock and awe" in order to open people up to his real agenda, which is...?


I'm pretty suspicious of the use of "comparative religion" in studying the New Testament, especially when it ignores the very Jewish nature of the Gospels and Epistles. There's an old saw about Paul adding Hellenistic ideas to early Jewish Christianity which is almost universally refuted among students of early Christianity today (even though it was orthodoxy a few decades ago). Given the distain most first century Jews had for the pagan world, it seems ridiculous (and rather insulting to them) to suggest that they were too dumb to create their own stories and had to borrow those of others. Let me put it bluntly: the thought world within which Jesus makes sense is that of the first century Judaism uncovered by responsible scholars (some Christians, many not) in the last twenty or so years. I hope to substantiate this in the lectures.


Anyway, there's lots of stuff around contesting the kind of "evidence" on display in the Da Vinci Code, Zeitgeist, and The God Who Wasn't There", et al. I could probably get you a bibliography. You might also have a look on Ben Witherington's blog http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/. He occasionally posts on this kind of thing. While scratching around I also found http://nicksmusings.blogspot.com/2007/10/zeitgeist-movie-part-3-jesus- copycat.html.
Thats what i got from my theo prof, as well this website helped to refute most of what zeitgeist said http://singinginthereign.blogspot.com/2007/07/zeitgeist-movie-is-christianity.html#c9056440876558201135 I am in no way against furthering thought, or the developement of the human mind. But to say aethiesm or agnosticism is a superior thought pattern is just silly. I am in no way blind to facts, infact this movie is more in itself devoid of seroius research. (quoted from the blog i listed above) "Most of the information in this video seems to come from Acharya S's book, The Christ Conspiracy (1999), which is a sensationalist book which has zero academic credibility." I would say do YOUR research on the subject instead of blindly following what the movie told you. Whether or not you agree with the opinion do your own research. You have the nerve to call people blind and prejiduced where in yourself you are blinded by the stuff in the video and if you did some seroius research you will see the logic and facts in the video are seroiusly flawed.

Anonymous said...

Keep going to defend your faith, as it is obviously the catalyst for ignorance in the world as a whole. It is almost admirable that you would blindly stick by something, but that something gives you security, a reason, hope. You can be in your bubble and as long as you are left alone it is all good.

All I can say is, some day you will see, or moreover, someday your descendants will see. I just hope that they are given free choice as to their faith :)

thedewar said...

You got me, we can only hope my descendants are not as blind or ignorant as I am ;)

Anonymous said...

I wonder if 2000 years from now religious fanatics will be praising the the great miracles and wonders of David Blaine and Chris Angel...

Tim Darne said...

what a bad blog. here's my interpretation of it, "boo hoo, this movie goes against what I believe in. and I'm sad because there is nothing anywhere to show that what I believe in is true. So my life based on self-serving 'faith' has been a waste of time."

suck it up, there ain't no heaven or hell. start trying to do the right thing NOW because NOW is all we have. Leave a legacy of peace not one of prejudism against people who use REASON to come to the conclusion that Christianity is just a more serious version of Broken Telephone.

and since I don't want admin ragging on me for being ananymous, this is Tim Darne in Alberta Canada.

thedewar said...

I"m hailing from AB too :)... though i'm not crying and i'm in no way convinced in what you or this movie had to say, just do a little research of your own :). Find what evidence supports Zeitgeist, find the academic credability there-of, do some research for yourself before you go out trashing others (as you speak of prejiduce). I'll agree that alot of Christians can be hateful prejiduced people and it makes me pretty sad. I hate getting a bad rap because people misrepresent themselves. You're not going to agree with me nor I with you, but come into this with an open mind and set out to learn. Dont judge everyone based upon the insane right wing nutjobs or the hateful homophobe jackasses out there. Do research for yourself, come to your own conclusion, to call me a mindless prejiduced sheep is pretty ignorant of you to do. I like to think of myself as a smart individual and have done my own research, credited by academic, not religeous sources on my belief and have found evidence to support what I deem as truth. If you take it otherwise go for it, its not my place to tell you what to believe, just dont tell me what mine is either ;) Cheers!

Anonymous said...

the movie isn't just bashing religion..people believe what they want to...however, all of the elements of the movie such as religion, 9/11, federal banking and such, was just an example to show how unaware society is, of what is going on around us. the world just isn't ready for peace. They were trying to tell us that
"when the power of love overpowers the love of power, the world will know peace" all they are trying to do is get the point across.

rickdog said...

Have you truthers actually gone to sites other than 9/11 conspiracy sites to find out what truth lies outside of your network of conspiracists? I mean sites were BOTH sides seriously debate the issue. If you have then you would understand how 9/11 conspiracies have been THOROUGHLY debunked by real engineers and scientists. Don't believe me? Give me something that you think is about the cover-up and I'll debunk it for you, guaranteed. This is a challenge truthers, show me one of your "facts".

And you anonymous posters who try to tear down people for their beliefs on the basis of the recycled gobbledygook that this movie presents in the first part. It's all a regurgitation of the amateurish "Jesus Conspiracy" book of ten years ago that was shown to not hold water. It's called "belief" people, and to go after people for their beliefs is another example of the rising intolerence in this country. I'm an athiest so I understand, we are one the most persecuted and untolerated belief group is this country.

123 said...

This is for Michael Barber!
The fact that your rebuttal to the movie's arguments is so emotional shows that no matter how much proof you are shown, you will never open your eyes to fallacies surrounding you.
You claim that the sources cited by the movie are not credible. The way I see it, Acharya is part of an International Religious Studies Institute which makes her more credible than all the websites you posted combined. The websites you posted are either religiously biased or just another random website made by someone sitting bored in their basement. My point is, you cant call someone's sources unreliable or non-credible when you cant come up with credible sources to refute your arguments. You obviously blindly believe in whatever it is you believe in and nothing anyone says or shows you can ever change that.
I am a religious man too and despite being offended by the movie, I was amazed by how astronomically advanced our ancestors were. So, my advice to you is next time, try to look at things from both sides without being biased for or against it.

Ryan Toronyi said...

Don't let it pass you by - regardless of the validity of this movie, it does make you think. Lets remember that we know more today then we knew yesterday - this is a constant truth. Also, lets not ignor the obvious truths while we search for the hidden ones.

WELCOME TO THE HUMAN RACE
Article by: Ryan P. Toronyi


~ STATEMENT TO HUMANITY ~

The key to knowledge is the ability to organized and understand information…
Do not support what you don't agree with…

I felt a need to examine my life. I discovered truths that changed my realities…
I'm not sure if my views are changing as much as my beliefs in my views...
An intelligent person is the first one to debate their opinions…

~ OUR EXISTENCE ~

You are born without understanding or faith. Your natural instincts are changed as you are taught who you are and who you should become…

WE EXIST AS A FORM OF ENERGY WITH THE ABILITY TO COMPREHEND OUR ENVIRONMENT FROM A SMALL AREA IN THE BACK OF OUR BRAINS:

- We don’t see with our eyes, we see through our eyes…. We actually perceive an image, translate and comprehend our environment within a physical area inside our brain that hasn’t directly experienced light in any form since? This is true about all of your senses: Hearing, Sight, Taste, Smell, and Touch.

WE EXIST AS SOMETHING BEYOND THE PHYSICAL FORM:

If you take away my flesh, who I am remains…

- Categorize a body into small enough pieces and you have the ability to witness that in the absence of any piece of a physical existence a personality remains, we can only destroy or change the physical.
- Our existence beyond the physical cannot be identified as more than a form of energy (society has and continues to debate this - the element of a soul).
- We are unique, as much as science has and will continue to explain about our genetic recipe, ultimately as a person we exist before conception. No two sperm will create the same results.
- You are unique before conception, the energy of who you are creates who you become, and the deeper science investigates the more we realize about our existence.
- Our physical bodies are biological machines we use to experience this existence, a machine that is fragile and can be destroyed… but still just a machine.

WE ARE EQUAL IN EVERY MEASURE (ASIDE FROM OUR PHYSICAL FORM WHICH ULTIMATELY HOLDS NO RELEVANCE) WITH OTHER MEMBERS OF THE HUMAN RACE, MOST IMPORTANT WE ARE ONLY AS GREAT AS THE COMPLETE COLLECTIVE OF OUR SPECIES:

- This is important, because in the long list of disgusting attributes human kind has developed that set us aside from the other species we share this planet with – we have with complete ignorance allowed members of our species to believe they’ve obtained supremacy of power, value, and importance over the rest of us.

WE ARE NOT PROPERTY.
WE HAVE MORALS AND A CONSCIENCE.
WE TEACH AND LEARN BY EXAMPLE.
WE ARE INTELLIGENT.
WE ARE AND NEED TO CONTINUE IMPROVING.

Never allow anyone to tell you what to believe as truth…

~ OUR FEDERAL GOVERNING SYSTEMS ~

Although I believe at one time our governments worked for societies. I now have no doubts that societies are working for the governments, ask yourself if that’s right…

What is the purpose of our federal governments?
Imagine if our local municipalities existed without any higher form of government. Imagine if your tax dollars went directly back into the community in which you live and work.

THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO REASON THE MEMBERS OF ANY COMMUNITY NEED OUTSIDE AUTHORITY.

FEDERAL HEALTH CARE IS NOT WORKING, FEDERAL SCHOOL SYSTEMS LACK INTELLIGENCE, FEDERAL TAXES FUND WARS, AND THE LIST GOES ON…

FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS SERVE ONE MAJOR PURPOSE – POPULATION CONTROL, WITH THE GOAL TO OBTAIN THE ABILITY TO ENFORCE COMPLETE CONTROL OVER SOCIETY. FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS DON’T WORK FOR THE PEOPLE. THEY WORK TOGETHER WITH OTHER FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS FOR THE PURPOSE OF INTERNATIONAL CONTROL.

The federal government doesn’t care about you, it’s robbing you. The federal government is limiting what you do, where you go, what you consume, etc…

They pretend to own you, and it’s a shame just how many of us believe they do…

~ OUR RELIGIONS ~

As much as we will ever know about our existence, I believe firmly that only an ignorant person would assume that we are the elite of all creation. There is and will forever be more to the picture, something greater then what we understand.

Please question everything, including your faith…

www.zeitgeistmovie.com – Free online Knowledge – Email me for more sources: ryantoronyi@hotmail.com

~ OUR POLICING/MILITARY FORCES ~

AS LONG AS THERE IS IGNORANCE IN SOCIETY, THERE WILL BE INJUSTICE AND CRIME:

- We are animals of gaining knowledge therefore it is safe to assume that while we don’t all share the same knowledge we will discover disagreements within ourselves and those we live amongst.

WE ARE EMOTIONAL CREATURES:

- We allow our emotions at times to dictate our actions, although this feature of our existence requires more understanding, it remains a truth.
- We will find that we all share an “evil” inside us, and at times (right or wrong) we act upon that “evil” as a part of who we are. Let’s not forget about the “great” inside us, and what wondrous outcomes hail from which.

WE KNOW BETTER:

Even though I’ll admit that Policing/Military forces can serve a purpose (world aid, etc… – this is another long discussion), I still can’t help but believe that the human race would continue to exist with or without such power controlling forces…

- Just as we have the ability to act criminally we have the ability to act morally.
- The only time our opinions on a situation contain any value, are when the actions taken affect us directly and/or indirectly. This seeming to be the case for just about everything that happens amongst our species (for every action there exist a reaction), it rests as evidence that if justice is to be served and the final decision is to contain any solid form of social justification, then it must be the decision of the majority of every opinion, not just the opinions of those in power with the loudest voices!

THE AMOUNT OF POLICING/MILITARY FORCES HAVE NOT AND WILL NEVER COMPLETELY CONTROL ANY INJUSTICES, UNTIL THEY HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL WHICH IS AN INJUSTICE TO ALL THOSE BEING CONTROLLED:

Please read this twice…

- We have proven that unless the environment of our situation is fully controlled we are allowing the possibility for actions of “hatred” to prevail. However we also prevail with actions of “greatness”. Full control will eliminate the option for either.
- We live in a society where we will stand by without action and watch something we know is morally wrong occur because we fear the same Policing/Military Forces we have created to protect us from such injustices.
- We know that Policing/Military Forces don’t prevent crimes of any nature. This is not because there is not enough force, it’s because we cannot predict an uncontrolled future.

Chaos will always exist – it is a required element of evolution…

WE NEED TO ACCEPT THAT WE ARE NOT PERFECT THERE WILL BE ACTIONS OF CRIME UNTIL WE UNDERSTAND OUR BEHAVIOUR:

- Too many of us are guilty of placing more of our efforts towards our own personal gains without taking the consideration of the wellbeing of others into mind.
- We are guilty of accepting the belief that we are “evil” on a primitive level, instead of simply ignorant and misunderstood like every other creature that exists.
- This “primitive” level of our existence is studied under the research of our reptilian complex.

IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF DEFENDING YOUR BELIEFS AND PERSONAL JUSTICES THEN YOU SHOULD DO SO – JUST AS YOU SHOULD DO FOR THOSE AROUND YOU WHO CAN’T DEFEND THEIR RIGHTS...

I AM GIVING MYSELF THE AUTHORITY TO HELP AID AND DEFEND MY FELLOW PERSON – I ASK YOU DO THE SAME…

People are good, until given reasons to justify their “bad” actions...

I was once told that everything in life can be justified - Are we intelligent enough to know what needs to be justified?

~ OUR SOCIETY ~

How do you expect us to behave? You tell us not to allow our anger to bring harm to our neighbors across the street, but you do nothing better then make us heroes when we do worst to our neighbors in foreign countries because of an anger you’ve created?...

NO ONE CAN GIVE A SINGLE REASON TO WANT ANYTHING LESS THEN WORLD PEACE – WE ALL WANT BETTER LIVES:

- The reality of obtaining world peace although appears to require major change actually requires ZERO effort. The major changes come after we realize this truth.
- It is our biggest contradiction that we continue to believe that this achievement requires war.

http://www.hfxpeace.chebucto.org/ – Free online Knowledge – Email me for more sources: ryantoronyi@hotmail.com

The realities I’m faced with today will show in the actions I take in my future…

I will not directly support what I don't agree with - this statement should be true for everyone…

NOT ONCE DID I SAY THAT GOVERNING SYSTEMS DON’T WORK, THAT POLICING/MILITARY FORCES SERVE NO PURPOSE, OR THAT RELIGION’S ARE FALSE CONCEPTS. – THIS IS IMPORTANT:

- We are all born into the moral sins of our ancestors. This is part of how we evolve/improve as a species. It is our responsibility on an individual level that we recognize how our actions affect the collective.
- We have allowed the development of our society we must share the responsibility of fixing the problems we discover within it.

The next steps we take are the most important – this will always be true…

THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU REALLY WANT OUT OF LIFE:

- To own shelter and protection from the elements
- To have food to prevent hunger
- To find love worth everything
- To have family and friends to celebrate existence with
- To have others who will provide aid when required
- To have the ability to return a favor
- To just feel “good” about the person you are

~ WE ALL DESERVE EQUALITY ~

I am still searching for someone who wants anything less – the truth is that when you take a global perspective you realize that the majority of us don’t have what we all deserve. Stop believing that there is nothing you can do…

QUESTION EVERYTHING YOU THINK YOU UNDERSTAND:

GOVERNMENT – How does this system work? Is it required?
TAXES – Why do we pay taxes? What do they fund?
IDENTIFICATION – Why are we being named, numbered, and organized?
RELIGION – Should any faith require the element of fear? Should we not question our faith?
HUMANKIND – Who are we? Are we actually intelligent?

I disagree with the structure of societies under all forms of hierarchy – because the people on top believe they have more value than those below them, and the people on the bottom dangerously lack the intelligence to know better – all us of breath the same air, we are all here for the same reason - to enjoy our lives as much as possible…

HERE ARE THE REAL SECRETS TO LIFE:

MONEY HAS NO VALUE – IT IS A FORM OF CONTROLLING LARGE POPULATIONS – RESEARCH THIS FOR YOUR SELF:

- Money is not a bad idea, it makes trade more convenient. The problem with money is obvious, we made it worth everything – It truly became the almighty dollar.
- We have given it so much value that we became purchasable.

To imagine that something as small and simple as a coin in my hand would hold enough value to another person they’d take my life from me for it…

What holds real value cannot be stolen to hold real value for anyone else…

THERE IS ONLY ONE LAW – DO UNTO OTHER AS YOU WOULD HAVE OTHERS DO UNTO YOU.

YOU DESRERVE COMPLETE FREEDOM – YOU ARE A SLAVE TO THE ORDER OF A SOCIETY THAT ULTIMATELY DOESN’T CARE ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL WELLBEING:

- We are taught that our freedoms cost the lives of many in war and that we should continue to support the ability to protect what freedoms we have, while we continue fighting for the freedoms we lack.

When did one person take freedom away from another? How did they do it? Why did they do it? What is one person’s freedom worth?

- The action of fighting for our freedoms is the statement that admits we don’t have them.
- Freedom can not be stolen - it has to be given away. We give up our freedoms when we fear those who threaten us.

The act of war is something that should embarrass us…
The brave will walk forward in peace, despite the threatening actions of others. They are fearless of everything including their own suffering and death…

I will not remember and honor the soldiers we have and continue to lose without the same consideration for the lives they have and continue to take. ~ PEACE TO ALL ~

YOU HAVE AS MUCH VALUE AND POTENTIAL AS EVERYONE ELSE – YOU ARE EQUAL IN EVERY MEASURE THAT MATTERS.

IF SOMETHING IS WORTH DYING FOR, THEN IT'S WORTH KILLING TO PROTECT - BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THIS STATEMENT - THINK ABOUT WHAT HOLDS THE MOST VALUE IN YOUR LIFE:

- This statement will hold truth until our level of intelligence rises.
- The most dangerous thing you can do in your life is threaten what holds the most value to another person.
- Understand that just because a statement holds truth, doesn’t make it right for every situation.

We unfortunately do not always think before we act…

ALL ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES - JUST AS ALL ACTIONS ARE CONSEQUENCES.

IF YOU ARE BEING CONTROLLED - YOU ARE ALLOWING IT.

*** QUESTION THIS DOCUMENT – RESEARCH THE VALIDITY OF THE INFORMATION YOU’VE JUST RECEIVED, DISCOVER THE TRUTH FOR YOURSELF ***

You might want to read this again to avoid any misunderstanding…

MY NAME IS RYAN PATRICK TORONYI, I WAS BORN ON THE FIRST OF AUGUST 1979 – CHRISTIAN CALENDER, ON EARTH, AND I WILL DIE FEARLESS WHEN IT HAPPENS - READY TO WELCOME WHAT COMES NEXT.

The collective development of this document was only possible because of the knowledge obtained by those who knew/know what needs to be understood. As such, this document has and will continue to evolve. The World Wide Web is our global consciousness…

READY TO TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY OF MY ACTIONS AS I LIVE IN SUPPORT OF: FREEDON OF VOICE, FREEDOM OF ACTION, AND FREEDOM TO ACHIEVE WORLD PEACE…

~ THE FUTURE IS NOW ~

rickdog said...

ho hum

it's shameful to waste 10 whole screenfuls of browser space, we need to conserve more.

rickdog said...

since the truthers could not convince enough people of the inevitable attack by extraterrestrials in flying saucers, they've focused their attention elsewhere. to bad they couldn't have done it in a way that's so destructive.

Ryan Toronyi said...

10 whole screen fulls of space... is there a shortage of space? I'm not a "truther" trying to convince anyone to act in any other manor then calm and collective about what's going on... because ever since this movie recieved attention it has been generating a confused piblic...
Supporting the viewing of this movie is important for me because it demonstrates that I am fully aware of the content that you will veiw later if you haven't done so yet.
I have said nothing new in what I wrote that you haven't heard before, I just put it together my way.

~ PEACE ~

rickdog said...

This is a tired rehash of previous debunked matters, you've taken whole clips of The God Who Wasn't There for the first part, various 9/11 CT movies for the second part, and Aaron Russo's From Freedom to Fascism for the third. And you don't even give attribution. Shame on you.

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/JREF?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&q=zeitgeist&spell=1

also Randi's excellent first forum on "Loose Change, a progenitor of Zeitgeist.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53102

Anonymous said...

And your an academic? Have you recieved your PHd? People talk about dumbing down education and your the proof.

Yes, Zeitgeist is sensationalist (if it weren't, it wouldnt carry much of a message) and it lacks 'evidence'. However, by putting your views as absoloutes aren't you ignoring parts of theology and religion? Your mind has been closed to a pin pick by spending years reading material that gave you absoloutes. Think outisde of the box, astrology seems far far more logical for the ancients to worship than 'imaginary' ones.

Peace

Anonymous said...

I note that this blog is:

Singing In The Reign is the blog of Michael Barber and Brant Pitre. Barber is Professor of Theology, Scripture and Catholic Thought at John Paul the Great Catholic University, in San Diego, CA. He is currently finishing a Ph.D. in Theology at Fuller in Pasadena, CA. Brant Pitre received his Ph.D. from Notre Dame, specializing in New Testament and ancient Judaism. He is the Donum Dei Professor of Word and Sacrament at Our Lady Holy Cross in New Orleans.

The Catholics are responsible for some of the most reprehensible tortures and depravities in human history. So if that is the foundation of the Catholics, why should we believe anything they have to say about anything?

WAKE UP PEOPLE, IT'S TIME TO DIE.

Becca said...

People need to think for themselves. If you have faith in something, honestly from your heart, nothing can change you. I've seen this film and see it as another attempt to discredit Jesus Christ. If you read the Bible, you can see the promise God made through the Jews for mankind was to redeem us from our sins. If the Bible is astrological, where did all the prophesies come from? God said it was by His insight to the Prophets we will know that He is God.
If someone is steered from their faith in Christ by watching this film, they have never built their faith on Him. Satan's fingerprints all over this and they work mighty hard to again, like most TV stations, movies etc are doing, making people doubt not only YWHY God but Jesus Christ. Have faith folks. Another word of note Horus did not die for your sins. God said the entire human race is guilty before Him for our wickedness, only Jesus, the Messiah can cleans us.
This movie is filled with errors as well, do your homework before you doubt Jesus Christ. I'm sure this site endorses the DiVinci Code as well....

Anonymous said...

It seems that Christians are consistently attacked for "not examining the facts" or similar sentiments by people who have not even read the Bible. This is not to say that the Bible is the only source of facts that Christians accept (far from it!), but rather it was intended as a sarcastic comment concerning people who claim that the Bible is full of inaccuracies and contradictions, and then, when asked for examples, tout weak "contradictions" that show little more than their lack of knowledge of what the Bible even says. This takes many forms, from quoting I Hezerezza 9:13 (which is blatantly not in the Bible), to saying that the Bible teaches us to make crude remarks because some enemies of Israel used vile language against God, and the Bible records what was said. Yes, I exaggerate (for the first one, anyway - the latter I have actually heard), and yes, I simplify - because that is not actually what I want to point out.

Rather, I want to point out that the God I serve (and yes, I freely use the word serve because that is what He demands of me) is not a God who demands blind faith and obedience; but rather is willing to prove Himself if you honestly ask Him to (and not infrequently when you dishonestly ask Him to). And frankly, the reason He doesn't do the big flashy miracles so much just to make us happy is because He has given us so many evidences of Himself in our daily life that we choose to ignore. And while I could go on about the little miracles, and about the proofs afforded us by science (hint: evolution requires way more faith than creation ever did), that also is not what I want to talk about.

What I want to talk about is prophecy.

Still there? I didn't lose you, did I? Well, if you're still reading, I'll continue.

The single greatest proof of God's existence in our world today is the Jew. The Jewish people, who were called out of Egypt x000 years ago (called out of a 100-year old man and woman a few hundred years before that, but I digress), have survived worse hardships than any other people group in history, and have survived as a people.

Do you know how many other people groups have survived being pulled out of their homeland, forced to integrate with other civilizations, and scattered throughout the known world; and have still managed to maintain any level of coherence as a distinct people group for more than a generation? I'll give you a hint: it rhymes with "hero." The Jewish people, on the other hand, have survived being forced out of their homeland not once, but twice (if you don't count their sojourn in Egypt as a third instance). And the latest time this happened, the Jews were scattered throughout the world, without a homeland for CLOSE TO TWO THOUSAND YEARS. Through these last two thousand years, the Jewish people have endured worse persecution than any other people group (and if you try to tell me the most well-known, the Holocaust, is a lie, then you are a fool who probably also believes we didn't land on the moon). And then, at the end of this time of estrangement from their homeland, the State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948, becoming the only country in the history of the world to be created in one day, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PROPHECY given in Isaiah 66:7-8,
"Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

THIS WAS PREDICTED some 2500 years before it took place!

Since this happened, the whole of the Middle East has targeted Israel, making every effort to drive them into the sea. Yet, despite frequently insurmountable odds, the nation of Israel has stood. You can read about the fascinating history of Israel on Wikipedia, if you're interested. I'm sure it's been spun every which way but loose, for one side or the other, but the facts still speak for themselves.

And this is just one of the more recent prophecies from the Bible that have come true. I encourage you to read the Book of Daniel side-by-side with any account of the life of Alexander the Great, or the rise and fall of the Persian, Greek, or Roman Empires - and keep in mind that there are manuscripts of this fascinating book that clearly predate the events they describe. Also, check out Daniel 12:4, which describes modern times in ways that Voltaire once cited as a proof against the Bible - using the scientific "facts" known to him in his day.

I think that brings me to one last thing to point out: Many accusations have been made against the Bible in the name of "science" and "archaeology" and whatnot else. But as time passed, we slowly came to realize that it was our understanding of the world around us that was mistaken, NOT THE BIBLE. So, while I started out by saying that we Christians recognize other facts than presented in the Bible, we also recognize that any facts that seem to contradict the Bible will soon be revealed for the lies that they are. And that is where my faith comes from: that even as God has been PROVEN faithful in times past, even though it seems doubtful now, it's only a matter of time until we see that God was right all along.

True faith is relying on the evidence we have seen and believed, not on closing our eyes to the truth and rushing headlong over a cliff.

Any comments, feel free to send to Trevortni@mail.com. I don't know that I'll ever find this particular discussion again.

And sorry about rambling, I tend to say nothing until I say a lot all at once.

lljames said...

The originator of this entire blog was to talk about what he is learned about.

He said he is not well schooled in polotics and that this is about the innacuracies of Horus and the parellels to Christianity.

He had a well thought out argument that showed how scholars of Ejyptology have interpreted Horus and how the sources that zeitgeist pullef from is a contravercial book by a man that scholars don't respect and argue against.

This has not swayed my "critical thinking" skills of much of what the movie proports is false, nor does it sway my educated conlusions of the bible being based on mythology.

I just think people need to start looking at the world differently and making changes appropriate to making the world a better place and it starts by thinking outside the box. Religion restricts one from thinking outside the box, regardless of where the belief originated.

trevwh0re said...

This is what I have to say. If Christianity was actually real, than what about the Indians of North America that all died before the Europeans and everyone else arrived? In the Bible is says that every man gets a chance with God. Well the Indians weren't aware of it before the White man came! And apparently God says that man was created in his image. He also says not to gamble, drink, etc. Well if Christianity was real, than why is God gambling us with Satan? And obviously man is not perfect, so then that means God isn't either. This is what I don't get. WHY DOES THE BIBLE CONSTANTLY CONTRADICT ITSELF!? WHY DOES JESUS' LIFE SEEM SO SIMILAR TO THAT OF JOHN'S. BECAUSE ITS ALL BULLSHIT. If there was this great God, why did the Bible get written in Greek? Why not Hebrew, which is the language of his own people... apparently. ITS ALL BULLSHIT! Why is it when you ask God to send you a sign, because you are unsure of his existence and you WANT to believe, you don't get one? And I'm pretty sure there was no Adam and Eve. You see, imbreeding causes retardation, a shortage of chromosomes! Religion is for people who NEED A CRUTCH IN LIFE BECAUSE THEY ARE WEAK MINDED! And just because you do get something you want, doesn't mean God helped you. "Oh I financed my home thanks to God". Well are you aware that it was actually YOU who took the steps to do it yourself. You religious people are MAD!

trevwh0re said...

This is what I have to say. If Christianity was actually real, than what about the Indians of North America that all died before the Europeans and everyone else arrived? In the Bible is says that every man gets a chance with God. Well the Indians weren't aware of it before the White man came! And apparently God says that man was created in his image. He also says not to gamble, drink, etc. Well if Christianity was real, than why is God gambling us with Satan? And obviously man is not perfect, so then that means God isn't either. This is what I don't get. WHY DOES THE BIBLE CONSTANTLY CONTRADICT ITSELF!? WHY DOES JESUS' LIFE SEEM SO SIMILAR TO THAT OF JOHN'S. BECAUSE ITS ALL BULLSHIT. If there was this great God, why did the Bible get written in Greek? Why not Hebrew, which is the language of his own people... apparently. ITS ALL BULLSHIT! Why is it when you ask God to send you a sign, because you are unsure of his existence and you WANT to believe, you don't get one? And I'm pretty sure there was no Adam and Eve. You see, imbreeding causes retardation, a shortage of chromosomes! Religion is for people who NEED A CRUTCH IN LIFE BECAUSE THEY ARE WEAK MINDED! And just because you do get something you want, doesn't mean God helped you. "Oh I financed my home thanks to God". Well are you aware that it was actually YOU who took the steps to do it yourself. You religious people are MAD!

beg33k said...

This review is so lame. This learns me that a lot of people just cannot put their thoughts into question.
You decided to close your eyes, fine if you can live with it, do not close the eyes of your surrounding.
If the US has more than 70% of christians, why americans go into war, killing ? This is forbidden from the Bible if I'm not wrong. Why can people not stop thinking about money rather than the environment surrounding us, the poverty, etc. The message of Jesus was apparently pointless, Christianity failed and Jesus failed. Instead of teaching christianity, let's open our eyes and teach love.

Anonymous said...

Christians can be so quick to throw all this movie out completely because it is not completely accurate. It did not take me long to realize this but didnt take any time at all to find a valid source for a connection between horus and jesus. Gerald Massey uncovered 180 similarities in the stories of jesus and horus. So calling the movie a complete lie is a complete lie. I dont agree with the movie at all but that doesnt mean im gonna throw it out completely. there is definitely something to the jesus - horus thing.

kagemni said...

I agree with the point Paul made. The sources Michael provides are not peer reviewed nor are they objective. They are instead christian apologist sites. The one source dismisses the collective works of Gerald Massey "third-hand sabre-rattling". If you make this assertion about Massey's volumes which include over three thousand pages, you need to come stronger than a website with a couple of pages of "findings" and no original research on the level of Massey's. I have yet to see one of these apologists refute Massey point by point, let alone match his scholarship. I don't care if you are a Ph.D. candidate, refuting Massey with weak web pages is not scholarship. You cannot be succinct and address Massey or for that matter Higgins' work Anacalypsis. Convincing me will require a lot more. Please list sources that can match , or have at least read, Massey's entire body of work as it relates to the topic.

Anonymous said...

I am very surprised with some of the comments I have read here. I would like to point out to Trevwhore that God is not gambling us with Satan, we are gambling ourselves. You see God is fair, just and loving. God blessed us with free will. We can choose our paths in life. I used to think like you until it was revealed to me that everythign else in my life was the crutch and Jesus was more then happy to take my crutch away and help me walk.

Why do so many people watch this movie and focus so hard on the first section. I think its easy to question the first part because the brush on so little of the Bible. The movie ends with RFID chipping... ever heard of the mark of the beast? The Devil will cause all men, great and small to take a mark and no man shall buy or sell save he that have the mark... it also says that no one with the mark will be able to hide. I find that interesting.

Lastly I want to say Satan has an agenda. And I think he is so pride filled and arrogant that he enjoys doing what he does right in front of our faces, and we see it and do nothing. I encourage all skeptics to get to know the Bible better. It is a fantastic book, its not just Matthew Mark Luke and John... Read with an open mind and I think its easy to see that theere is no way man wrote this book alone, we're not smart enough.

Wanderer said...

I see that the staid comment about Christianity being a crutch has been used again. Well, let me just point out that the reason crutches,wheels and propellers exist is to do what human legs cannot. If that seems like weak mindedness to you, well then, set an example- never take your car to work again. If for some reason you need to travel overseas, don't let yourself be carried dishonorably in an airplane with other weak willed, weak limbed people- just swim the Pacific. People should learn not to take life for granted, right?

I also notice something about all Red- Indians dying before getting to know Christ. Well, did you really think it's as simple as saying "Ok, God, I believe in you, so can I go to Heaven now?" and the answer comes "Cheers matey, sign the contract and enter"? Believing is only the beginning- it is opening yourself up to Him as a sapling before the sun when it first pushes itself out from the earth, it is the point from which you begin to grow into what you really are. For that, you NEED to love and trust him. Where would Daniel from Karate Kid have been if, on his first day of training when Mr. Miyagi set him to wax a garage full of cars, he had simply walked out on him because he was unable to see the point of the exercise? We CANNOT appreciate what God puts us through most of the time, because we lack the nifty benefits of omniscience, and that is where TRUST comes in. And trust cannot be earned by legerdemain trickery. God's miracles are not a conjuror's tricks to be performed to the oohs and aahs of a spellbound audience, but a special gift given in return for trust. The principal part of revelation is self-realization. Newton was a genius because he CAME UP WITH calculus, and maths students who are taught the same thing in class are not even if they know more about it than he did. Simply because discovery of knowledge meant more than the knowledge itself.
Christianity failed and Jesus failed? I think not- if there exited even one person in human history who accepted Him in his heart, who learnt what it's like to feel God's love, unconditional, purest, highest and one-of-a-kind, and was able to return it, then He has not failed. And I think there have been several such people, with numbers growing everyday. Open our eyes and teach love? I have never heard of love greater than dying a very painful death for the very people who are killing you, and who would only mock your sacrifice for ages to come. Romeo and Juliet is just plain depressing- THIS is love, more than what ANY human is capable of. Does that make Him a fantasy? Fantasy genre is my life- I know more about it than about any other subject, and I don't remember finding a parallel of this concept anywhere. Dying for the sins of mankind? The very purpose of Horus' existence in the Egyptian pantheon was to vanquish Set and fulfill the age-old potboiler theme of good-guy-beats-bad-guy with the "you killed my father, prepare to die" background. If this concept did not come from God, but from a man, then I'd have to say he got it right- mankind needs divine love, forgiveness and belonging more than nuclear proliferation treaties and open world markets. He would have to be the best social scientist ever. Combine it with the timelessly beautiful, flawlessly rendered teachings of the Bible, and we have the greatest philosopher and author ever. Not to mention being the greatest pacifist ever, the greatest social reformer ever, the greatest motivational speaker and HRD specialist ever... Oh, did I mention the greatest forger ever, to hide his hand in all this? ANY conspiracy theory regarding the 'invention' of Christianity would be incomplete without such a person ready at hand, a conveniently anonymous demi-god in himself if his talents are anything to go by. It is actually less probable than a visitation from the Living God Himself. Read the Bible and see for yourself whether Shakespeare had the talent to write even a single Gospel.

Bobby said...

Sheep to the sluaghter.

Lucrieno said...

Hello Everyone!

I just wanted to express my gratitude towards all of you. It has been wonderful to read all of your comments and at times, quite humorous! There are some feisty people in here and it's great to see that. I am, as someone described earlier, one of the "Red Indians"! Although, here in Canada we are referred to as First Nations thank you. As a spiritual person and a part of the land, I think that it's important to truly understand ourselves and our spiritual side before we can embrace any form of organized religion.

Religion can only be used as a tool of control if we allow it. We have to understand that it's not our job to convert, interfere, or change any living being or interrupt in their natural learning process. We lose all meaning of our spiritual self if we impose our will or beliefs on others; a spiritual being does not convert people, but leads by example. That's why many people are susceptible to fanaticism; they do not know themselves and seek reassurance to alleviate the fear or emptiness that surrounds them. NOTE... this is not the case for all religious people, but those of you who are Religious have probably had contact with these types of individuals. Another thing that I wanted to mention was in regards to all the talk about academics.

We have a tendency to(attempt to) live in the future and ultimately, we lose perspective of our surroundings and get lost in the intellect. A healthy life is a balanced life and although the mind (intellect) is a part of that balance, it is still only a piece of the puzzle. When praying, or as I refer to praying, giving thanks and leaving offerings, we always pay respect to the mind; however, it's important to be cautious not to get trapped in that realm alone. Academics at times get lost in the mind and lose sight of the reality of the situation. Almost everything that academics study is based on theory and theory is neither fact nor fiction. It's important to keep an open mind and accept the possibility that anything based on theory could be proven false, especially with regards to science, religion, etc...EVEN if it disproves your life's work. Truth is truth, we seek it in our dreams and in our hearts.

Once again, I would like to thank everyone for their comments, it's been fun. I just watched this movie today after months of referrals and I'm glad that it led me to this blog. If someone here knew all the answers, there would be absolutely no need to argue and you would probably no longer be with us in this human form. Equality, there's no need for name calling, we're all learning and we're all in this together. All the best,


Luke

flyingspaghettiapostle said...

I love how you're answer to everything is 'that's a lie' or 'that's a complete fabriciation' while offering absolutely nothing in return. It's wrong because you say so eh budday! Man how can I be so stupid? From now on if I have any questions instead of looking for answers I'll just come ask you.

Anonymous said...

Read this link:

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/carl-teichrib/5isis.htm

ISIS was indeed a virgin, and thus HORUS was born of a virgin.

Open your eyes and stop being so naieve.

-Shalane

Anonymous said...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta10.htm

ISIS, VIRGIN OF THE WORLD

"I, Isis, am all that has been, that is or shall be; no mortal Man hath ever me unveiled."

AND ALSO:

"This Egyptian deity [ISIS] under many names appears as the principle of natural fecundity among nearly all the religions of the ancient world. She was known as the goddess with ten thousand appellations and was metamorphosed by Christianity into the Virgin Mary, for Isis, although she gave birth to all living things--chief among them the Sun--still remained a virgin, according to the legendary accounts."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta10.htm

I don't do this to try and change your minds, or to be hurtful...

I have a strong belief in God (not a Christian god, jewish god, or what ever god) and I know what it's like to have your beliefs targeted and attacked.

But I just try to help people see what I see, just like you Christians do.

I apologize for calling you naieve...

I just urge you to be more open-minded and be willing to do EXTREMELY IN-DEPTH research if you want to negate the statements made in the zeitgeist movie.

Go throught the statements one by one.

Visit more than one website (or read more than one book) to to find the asnwers you seek. Especially before you decide what is the truth.

Read everything you can get your hands on - that is pro Bible, pro zeitgeist, and not. Etc etc.

-Shalane

Dan DePriest said...

I would like to respond to one comparison between Christ and other pagan myths to show that the presence of similarities doesn’t necessitate a conclusion that Christianity is merely an amalgamated religious system. We’ve already seen in a previous post and in the articles referred to on web sites how comparisons can be a nice card trick, the work of a skilled illusionist whose audience must contribute their willing suspension of disbelief to believe what the illusionist wants them to believe. Many who have had their faith in Christ injured by such card tricks felt something click in side them that made them say, “Yes I see that now”. The same readiness to be swayed is exploited by those who point to an intelligently constructed (as opposed to naturally occurring) monument on the planet Mars that appears to be a human face when viewed as the shadows fall conveniently.

Before I proceed, though, I want to say that part two and three of the Zeitgeist film were more journalistic, even if amalgamated from similar exposés, and paid more attention to raw data of which many of us have long wanted honest public examination. On first viewing I give these portions of the film a B+.

In part one, though, I find the usual acrimonious illogic posing as scholarship aimed at the easily manipulated. One example should be enough. The comparison of Christ’s claim to be the Way, the Truth, and the Life with similar claims from various other mythological saviors is not in itself a necessary disqualification of Jesus Christ as the true savior. If Christ had not made that claim He would have, if anything, disqualified Himself as the savior of Mankind. And in that instance I would have certainly expected the makers of the Zeitgeist film to have pointed out that, because He never made that claim, the Church’s elevation of Christ to Saviorhood was self-serving, manipulative, and unsubstantial. Hmmm, disqualified if He does, disqualified if He doesn’t. The same goes for all other similarities to Jesus. He is flawed without them, He is guilty by association of invalidity along with them.

I will deal further with the film’s abuse of logic below. But let’s look closely at this one similarity. The New Testament not only records Christ’s claim that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life, He said in this that He was the fulfillment of the Law and that this was “a great mystery” or, if I may, the Mystery. Also, Paul’s letters echo the Mystery of Christ which takes in His incarnation, His identification with His church, and other ponderous things.

Here is what I’m getting at. There is one common element of all broad ideological institutions i.e. religions, philosophies, and moral systems of whatever variety. It’s The Mystery, the nagging question that follows after the cosmology of a broad ideological system is laid down and that can only be answered by a free conscience. The question is expressible in many ways. Most simply it asks, “How then should we live?” The systematic theologies that develop in the struggle to answer this simple question overall seem to address three other more specific questions, “What is the greatest power, what is the greatest knowledge, and what is the highest life?” If you look closely you can see that all systems including Christianity ultimately strive to uncover for Mankind these three things. These are the most fundamental questions that can occupy the human conscience. These questions are The Mystery of the Law that Jesus was claiming to be the fulfillment of. His claim illustrates this, but it is also illustrated in the instructions given in the book of Exodus regarding worship in the Tabernacle.

Christ’s disciples knew the old Law under Moses. They knew from a life of instruction in the synagogue how the wilderness tabernacle and the Holy Temple objectified the Law. In other words, worship was an object lesson for the Law and Covenants of God. The covenants of course have to do with God’s promises to the people. And as object lessons for remembrance, God instructed Moses and Aaron to place three (3) items beside or inside the Arc of the Covenant. The Arc was called the mercy seat. It was to be seen as God’s seat or throne which represented the seat of all of God’s authority, all of His wisdom and all of His merciful intentions for Man. These were objectified at the Arc by three things God gave to the people in the wilderness including Aaron’s rod which budded, the tablets of the Law, and a golden pot filled with Manna.

In essence God was showing the people that all power, all knowledge and all true life was His. And by first giving these covenant objects to the people before they were placed with the Mercy Seat, God seems to be saying that He intends to share The Mystery with Mankind, that mankind need not strive aimlessly searching for it. The rod of Aaron, the book of the Law, the pot of manna—the power, the knowledge, the life or the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And Christ’s proposal was that He was the fulfillment of God’s covenant promise through Abraham to bless the world in this way. All of this is just to show that there is a basis for Christ’s claim and those who heard it would have understood the magnitude of it.

There are only two fundamental possibilities for Mankind, either there is or there isn’t a Mystery to be answered. If there isn’t then nothing matters above any other thing anyway and neither Christ nor the Zeitgeist film have any vital relevance whatsoever so there’s no point in bickering. However, if there is a mystery that Mankind may rejoice in then there are again only two possibilities. Either (1) Mankind is left to wander in the wilderness of time and space vainly hoping he will someday ferret out the truth amid all the countless offers of power, knowledge and life, or (2) a benevolent, intelligent, and personal God has already provided a path to the Mystery and authenticated it. A malevolent god wouldn’t share the Mystery. An unintelligent god wouldn’t have a mystery to share. And an impersonal god wouldn’t care.

But a sharing God would have to authenticate His true path Himself or else it would be no more compelling than any other path. This is part of the illogical presumption in part one of the Zeitgeist film. The resurrection of Jesus, which F. F. Bruce called the most authenticated fact of ancient history, is a sufficiently evidenced, Devine signature upon the claims of Jesus to any who don’t have an emotional interest in rejecting Him.

But even without compelling evidence, mere similarities with other alleged resurrections is not logically sufficient to summarily reject the resurrection of Jesus Christ as not authentic. Nor, incidentally, is the world’s cruel history sufficient to convict Him as responsible even when cruelty is inflicted by cruel men in His name. Similarities of any kind among claimants are logically insufficient to conclude one claim invalid. It is lack of authentication and witness that makes a claim unsubstantial. I don’t need to put my finger in the pierced hands and feet of Jesus to be drawn to His claims. I just need compelling evidence that He really did rise from the dead. If the film makers so feverishly want to derail Christianity all they have to do is prove that the solid evidences for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which alone has turned to Christ some of the most brilliant and hardened atheistic scholars in history, are false. They don’t have to rely on parlor tricks. They don’t even have to prove that the resurrection never happened or that Jesus never existed. They can show by scholarly means that the evidence is false.

My bottom line point is this: the Zeitgeist film maker’s assumption that Christianity is a mere amalgam of similar pagan traditions is a logical fallacy that can only follow with the a priori proposition that NO savior tradition represents a revealed Truth from God. The film makers have not established the validity of this proposition. Therefore their conclusion that Christianity is dismissible as no different from other similar traditions is invalid. No one today can verify empirically that Abraham Lincoln was the sixteenth president of the united States of America and was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth. Yet by many compelling records and evidences we conclude that this tradition is fact. If we couldn’t conclude this, the Zeitgeist film makers might say that many lawyers from Illinois wore top hats and gave speeches in the mid nineteenth century, and since one after another of them were never president then none of them were. Of course they wouldn’t bother doing this because they probably have no core disdain for Abraham Lincoln.

It doesn’t impress me that the solar path falls and then rises and thus inspires ancient peoples to worship the sun and mythological characters purported to be offspring of the sun god. As I said we are all looking for the Mystery. Why shouldn’t the numerous anticipations and deified imaginings of Mankind be similar to the revealed certainties of the God Who is there. Perhaps He made us in His image with rudiments of His own creative impulses and perhaps that explains why, at a smaller level, we think like Him. Children do tend to resemble their parents. We should feel honored.

thedewar said...

I really dont understand any significance atall when the movie relates the words sun and son. If they are similar in hebrew and greek texts i can understand a similarity, but the fact that they use a homophone in english to bring a bizarre comparison of sun/son worship is quite a stretch.

Anonymous said...

What most people don't seem to see is the fact that even if Christianity was very similar to anything else, That satan doess have the power to influence people to make things up and write things they never happened.
Remember SATAN HAS ALOT OF POWER!
He coudl have looked forward into time and seen God's plans.
God never says that he doesn't have the power to see into time, but i bet he doess, he could have seen it time what would happen, then convinced people before Jesus came to do things that would make Jesus look like a copycat.
Im not saying that my theory is true, but it is EXTREMELY possible.
Especially because God warns us about this kind of stuff.
If you wanna talk this over with me my email is kazussgames@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

Has anyone read this?

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1216-30.htm

And why should we believe some king's version of the bible? James was just trying to placate the masses, to keep the poor pacified.
Jesus would have been more like MLK Jr., who was also killed when he took up the plight of the poor.


Jesus' Third Way

* Seize the moral initiative.

* Find a creative alternative to violence.

* Assert your own humanity and dignity as a person.

* Meet force with ridicule or humor.

* Break the cycle of humiliation.

* Refuse to submit or to accept the inferior position.

* Expose the injustice of the system.

* Take control of the power dynamic.

* Shame the oppressor into repentance.

* Stand your ground.

* Force the Powers into decisions for which they are not prepared.

* Recognize your own power.

* Be willing to suffer rather than retaliate.

* Force the oppressor to see you in a new light.

* Deprive the oppressor of a situation where force is effective.

* Be willing to undergo the penalty of breaking unjust laws.

mcox said...

horus brought his father osiris,back from the dead.
therefore...he "raised the dead"

there are many holes in ur argument,you need to research this information a little bit more. But there are also many holes in the zeitgeist movie.
but aside from that...this movie shows how religion was merely created to bring political power.
which is true.many people have used religion in the past just to push their political powers.
religion,yes a belief and something to have faith in.
but at the same time...an evil that corrputs its followers minds,only to be close minded in thinking that their way,is the "right" way.

Anonymous said...

CHRISTINALITY IS A REAL RELIGION....NO MATTER WHAT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT CHRISTINATY I STILL BELEVE ON THE LIVING GOD... GOS IS REAL....GOD BLESS YOU ALL...

Anonymous said...

Free will, and intelligence and archeology and facts, and Google and the truth, painful as it can be, we've been conned by elite wealthy control-freak bastards, the only god is google. The real crimes today are religious people who refuse to look at fact. Some have and are now happy. 'pride' holds you back from knowing, nothing else.

Anonymous said...

So, after all is said and done, where or what is the evidence for the existence of Jesus as he is presented in the bible? Just a question. Also, the fact that some of the parallels presented in the film (in regards to Horus) turn out to be less than credible do not detract from the film's main message of dissent. I agree that inconsistencies and lack of fact checking work against the film's credibility however, the film has done it's job in that it has caused us all to stop and think critically about what we have seen. If this where not the case, none of us would be here engaged in this dialogue.

Anonymous said...

regardless i think the message of the movie is to basically question everything and dont believe everything you hear...some of the things are a bit wacky but others might make you rasie an eyebrow or two

Anonymous said...

I ve watched zeitgeist with an open mind and a critical eye, and i wasnt shocked by the claims in the movie, its a truth ive always known in my heart when i look. your discussions about the intricate inaccuracies of theological ideas and concepts are disigenious and quite frankly irrelevant, they can never be proven. religeons all around this world since time began have oppressed different ideas truth or not, because religion is based on nothing tangible whatsoever the foundations are so fragile, a mere kick would bring it down, the churches even turn on their own in a most evil fashion if those people try to bring in new ideas, because their belief system is so steeped in dogma. why would a religion wish to deprive people of the knowledge and understanding which science can bring, why did religion not want us to know that the earth goes around the sun???. and yes "Dare i say it" what about fossils. the jesus story is a beautiful and dramatic story but its a story. and the fact that the story cant be substantiated beyond reasonable doubt because of its distance in time makes it even stronger because now an eternal stalemate has been reached, those who believe and those who dont.
the original blogg on the top of this page attempts to debunk the similarities between horus and jesus, and the only evidence of any consequence cited is that the claims made in the film would be laughed at by academics? would that be the academics whose entire lifes and careers have been dedicated to and depend on the authenticity of the science (and i use that term lighlty) of theology, the movies zeitgeist is honest enough to provide evidence of its sources and leave it up to others to fight over the ins and outs.
It is not my intention to offend anyone's sensibilities, and i respect anyones right to believe what they want. if you are religious and you hate the movie, perhaps you should look again, not at the bit which tells you your belief is wrong, but the bit which explains why our world is evil and cruel because of a few certain individuals with an agenda, this stuff is very concerning and its something which i see happening everyday, i would have thought a religious individual would also be as concerned, if jesus is real perhaps he would want you to look beyond the your pride at the things the doubters say, and focus on the things which matter, like the direction of this world and its future, in the jesus story he always concentrated on what mattered not his own pride and suffering. be aware that a new world order will have no place for religion of any persuasion, it will be the worship of the elite government, and all religions will be crushed because eventually the sensibilities of those who believe will become an obstacle to their agenda. thank you J!M

Licht2202 said...

The first part of the Zeitgeist movie is completely fictional and easily debunked. Anyone who actually believes anything from the first part of the movie does so out of ignorance and laziness to not research whether or not what is stated is fact or completely made up. Well the fact of the matter is that the information provided in the first part of zeitgeist is the most illogical concoction of lies and unsubstantiated claims I've ever seen.

zeitgeistmoviepart1.blogspot.com/

Here's a thought said...

My thought to all of you looking into this whole thing is this. Have you ever considered the fact that there is all this type of dicussion concerning if the christian religon is true or not gives the answer in a nut shell? If God made all of this (christianity) as the bible describes he did and the preachers teach he did why would a few thousand years after starting it all would there be these debates concerning if it is true or false. The answer in a nut shell is it could not be because the "all knowing, seeing, and supreme being that he is said to be would not have let there be issue for debates such as these. He would have made things plain and simple and easy so everyone could understand and be of like mind. There would not be all these hundreds of denominations in the world which only cause confusion. It is all very simple if you just look at it as it really is. Human beings are the ones that make things complicated and cause confusion and it has always been this way. This proves that man devised religon in whatever fashion it has been devised in whatever part of the world or in whatever time era. Look at history and man and see it is the same in whatever subject matter you search for. Isn't that proof enough? That's all I have to say about it. Thanks for your time.

Here's a thought said...

Sorry, I do have something else to say which I forgot about. If you you have ever actually read the bible, mainly the first several books it is all to evident that it is not God talking and giving instruction to man. It is man giving instruction and saying it is God. How can people believe and want to worship the God portrayed in those writings. He instructs men such as Moses, Gideon, Joshua, King David and others to slaughterand genocide millions. He instructs to not leave anything breathing not babies, children, women or even ptes and livestock. Oh but wait I am mistaken. He does tell on a couple of occasions not to kill the virgin girls because he does what them to be kept alive.....and for what? To bring back and let the armies have them to do with whatever they wish. I have never understood why the church has lifted up these men...Moses, Gideon (Gideon bibles are in the hotel and motel room all over the world)and other like these men. Read what they did in the name of God and with instruction by God in those old testement books. I don't care what kind of reasons there might be to cause geneocide as described in the bible if it happened as described it cannot be a loving just being causing it. The real truth is evident. It is like many other ancient warlord minds in history. Human beings are the ones that carry out these types of things not a loving kind just supreme being. If people actually really read the bible they would have to question these horrible and sick writings and start searching for real truth as I did many years ago. That's all....really

Anonymous said...

I am sorry, but your only argument is that there is no record in history regarding Horus, or the other Gods portrayed in Zeitgeist. Where do you think your documentation is from! A man who wrote a book and called it THE WORD OF GOD ... Wow. Intelligent

Jay said...

Well christian mythology isn't as good as Pagan mythology. The myths of sin and hell have been used to usurp control over a population, and that fact can't be refuted. Oh, lets not forget the mythology found in Revelation that is utterly absurd.

Jay said...

Lol! I find these so-called "refutations" hilarious! What are they going to "refute" next? Heliocentricism? The fact the Earths round?

Let me guess: You'll go to the bible for those so-called "refutations" LMAO :D

In all seriousness you can't refute something if it's true. Christianities been refuted, Zietgeist hasent.

Anonymous said...

Here is the only true 3 words ever spoken in this blog.

I don't know.

Repeat them as often as you feel necessary.

They are sacred words.

RJ

Birth Mom of Adoption said...

Wow. I wish I had seen this post back in 2007...
I just saw the movie clip on youtube, I remembered seeing it a few yrs ago in college by some guy claiming we need to get rid of money all together...and all the rest of the claims too. I wasn't as strong (if any) a christian back then, and my theology major was doing my faith more harm than good also....Until I stopped listening to professors and started listening to the voice inside of me. The Holy Spirit...is the best thing about Christianity!
When I saw the movie again, my heart just sank because I saw how easily I would of been convinced back then that it was true.
I think no matter what people say or prove, I'll remember the devil is out there and I've been gullible before. Now, I watch a movie like that..and an overwheleaming sense of peace comes over me and thanksgiving. I'm so blessed to not just "jnow God is real, but to feel him in me everyday. You can't deny the Holy spirit once he has truly entered your body. I dont think my comment make smuch sense. I just wanted to say something about the truth I feel inside....but it's hard to put into words. Isn't the Holy Spirit uniquely christian? My favorite verse is Luke 1:41: When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is just awesome! Thank you God for our free will under Your Sovereignty.

Anonymous said...

you can all debate until the cows come home. this much is true, guaranteed:

1. all of the events either written about in texts or shown in movies happened long before anyone here was around. you will never be able to prove that any of it was true. those debunking the movie are using 'evidence' that is the equivalent of words on paper.

2. anything that jesus is said to be able to do, or that god (if there was one) is said to be able to do has never been seen by anyone alive today (nor have god+son), based on probability and the laws of physics these things most certainly never happened

3. to think that humans, at just a slight dna difference to the next species, and them the one before that, has not evolved from previous life on the planet in a very similar way scientists demonstrate is simply ignorant

4. anyone debunking the existence of god really doesn't have anything to loose, so it begs the question: why bother?

Anonymous said...

I haven't visited this comment string in a while. I'm glad to see the exchange is still going but I'm sorry to see some still using it to vent their hatred of Christians. They claim it stems from the "fallacy of Christianity" as a well developed institution of control but no one is controlled who doesn't want to be especially bitter atheists and arrogant Christians. That's the telling point. I move through life as a believer in Christ's claims and my greatest struggle isn't with atheists but Christians. So many times in my 56 years I've grieved and asked myself "why am I part of this mess"? Then I remember that patience with His own is typical of the Christ I trust. He doesn't need to protect His reputation even from the foolish things His people say and do. If someone rejects Him because of what a Christian does it's tragic. But their rejection is still their own fault for putting their trust in their expectations of humans instead of seeking the person of Christ Himself. So many of these comments show their rejection is because they see failure on the part of historical (institutional) Christianity and assume Christ is either impotent to guard the integrity of His own institution or else He doesn't really exist. They then find fictions like the that proposed by Zeitgeist and settle on an easy methodology that will make them feel or sound thoughtful for rejecting Christ altogether. But, as I said before, Christ isn't worried about His reputation. He is in the long suffering, patient business of working His will in the Earth and in the corrupt hearts of humans. How could a benevolent God do this any other way that would preserve our own integrity. We must discover our own weaknesses and our potential to become like Him through a painful and ugly history of human conflict, including the conflict of ideas. Unfortunately emotion charged agendas tend to get in the way of honest debate.

Dan DePriest said...

I just figured out how to identify myself. Sorry. I was the 8:20 am anonymous.

Dan DePriest said...

To Aegan Ajith. I think, like so many, you are making God a merely rational being with merely rational intentions. Certainly God is rational which is why I suppose, in His image, He made humans rational. But that is the smallest, and also the most measurable, component of what we are. There is a great deal more about us that is far less measurable and far more dangerous. If God's intention by coming in the flesh of Christ was only to put in order our rational life (i.e. get us all to agree concerning rational things)surely you can see that would accomplish nothing long standing concerning peace let alone the likelihood of us worshiping the creator more than the creature. Let's face it, we're still a species that want's what it wants, not what is best or most sublime. We’re driven, like children, by our self-interest and only occasionally rise above it to remind us that we do have a capacity for real love. And by love I mean the ability to choose an action which will hurt us but be good for someone else who may not even deserve it.

But as a species we’re still not much better than the animals. In some ways we're even worse. Animals don't exactly choose evil. They choose survival because they don't have the capacity for altruism as we think of it.

We're just like the so called “prodigal son” (Luke 15) AND his older brother who both wanted their father's things but not their father. You, my friend and so many other Christ rejectors on this post are like the younger brother who rejected the father's values to find his own way. And often times I and other so called Christ-followers on this post have been like the older brother who arrogantly celebrate how faithful we've been to the Father's will while ignoring our younger brothers' needs and the Fathers true desire for both of us. People, lets all listen more closely to who Christ really is and not as institutional biases, pro or con, prefer to portray Him. There are clearly two general sides to the heated debate on this post. I’ve seen integrity on both sides and I’ve seen Christ made a straw man quite a lot by both.

Mario said...

Lol the movie warns, how are we to know you are just trying not to defend the lies and deceit? Just saying we have to be open and if people want to willingly watch it and do what they want to do afterward let them be. All everything leads up in this movie is pointing out how Corrupt and messed up human beings are, which in fact is exactly how it is, religion seems like a tool of control strictly because it contradicts its own teachings at times, how can you be a christian and racist? because that is how fucked up we are, so just be open to the possibilities and i honestly feel this is bullshit, how can you say what you do not know of is a lie? It just seems as though you are trying to defend the deceit(which might not be the case)

Paul said...

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Anonymous said...

First thing is first. If the Christianity and their Scriptures were fabricated, why was an English translation oppressed for so many years? How are the old Hebrew scroll's explained. Zeitgeist said that Christianity teaches blind obedience to authority. If that is true, then someone please explain why Psalms chapter 2 exists. If it was made by the institutions to make money and control. Then WHY IS II CORINTHIAN CHAPTER 11 IN THE SCRIPTURES? It clearly states that those who seek money(tithes/offering) in exchange for the Gospel are ministers of Satan transforming themselves into the ministers of righteousness.

As far as control, this is the worst argument available in the infidel's toolbox. Revelation 3:20-21 states:

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

If a person has truly opened that door and sups with Jesus, then why does that person need an oligarchical figure(pastor, pope, priest etc) over him/her. Hebrews 5 supposes that Christians are to eventually become teachers, not to stay under a pastor the rest of our lives. Most "pastors" today do not even demonstrate the scriptural pastor. Only one example of a pastor as the head of the church, and it is a horrible one. That is Diotrephes, the one who had preeminence, in the 3rd Epistle of John.

As for the star in the east, the movie producer is ignorant of Scripture. The star was there for at least 2 years (Matthew 2). Explain that. No combination of astrological stars will align for that long of a period to appear as one star.

man with desire said...

This article refutes and disproves claims of Zeitgeist movie, from the part of Christianity:

http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/zeitgeist_movie.html

I suggest to read the article!

Subhash said...

Just some words ...
HE will be "laughing his head off" seeing all this .
The Point ?
You don't NEED to defend Jesus and Christianity. i believe in HIM not because HE did some miracles, but the lessons of life he gave us. I believe in them and I don't Need any Proof or I don't care if someone claims otherwise.

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nazani said...

I'd just like to point out that both Jesus and Horus were worshiped for well over a thousand years. Of course stories about these mythical personages varied greatly in different regions and over the course of centuries. It's safe to say that the recorded myths of Horus were based on even earlier myths:
http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/horus.html
It's also safe to say that if a modern Catholic priest or Protestant preacher went back in time to 1st century Israel, they'd end up in a fistfight with the locals over the identity and teachings of Jesus.
In attacking a strawman like this amateurish video, you're revealing yourselves as lazy. Take on some genuine scholars like researchers at the U of Chicago Oriental Institute or archaeologist Dr. Isreal Finkelstein.

Anonymous said...

Primary sources & scholar commentary on them support ZG1:

Sourcebook
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeistsourcebook.pdf

Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes
http://truthbeknown.com/chrisforbeszeitgeist.html

Zeitgeist Part 1
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2997

A Brief History of Jesus's Winter Solstice Birthday
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=22108#p22108

Sun/son
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4835#p4835

http://dec25th.info

Joshua Dobson said...

Crucification? I take it you are quite the scholar.