Thursday, July 03, 2014

Gentle King of the Universe: 14th Sunday of OT

Well, folks, it has been a long, long time since we’ve had a reading on
Sunday from Ordinary Time (since March 2, to be exact), but here we are: we’re mostly “stuck” in Ordinary Time until the end of November.  Not that that’s a bad thing!  Ordinary Time has extraordinary insights.

We are in Cycle A of the Lectionary, reading through the Gospel of Matthew.  Sundays 9–13 of Ordinary Time were either skipped or pre-empted this year by the Solemnities Pentecost through Sts. Peter and Paul.  So we pick up Matthew again in media res, “in the middle of things.”

This Sunday we find Jesus more or less in the middle of his earthly ministry (Matt 11), and the Readings are marked by a strong theme of the restoration of the world-wide Kingdom of David.

1. Our First Reading is Zechariah 9:9-10


Thus says the LORD:
Rejoice heartily, O daughter Zion,
shout for joy, O daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king shall come to you;
a just savior is he,
meek, and riding on an ass,
on a colt, the foal of an ass.
He shall banish the chariot from Ephraim,
and the horse from Jerusalem;
the warrior’s bow shall be banished,
and he shall proclaim peace to the nations.
His dominion shall be from sea to sea,
and from the River to the ends of the earth.


“Daughter Zion” and “Daughter Jerusalem” are poetic images in which the whole people of Israel are personified as one of the royal virgin daughters of marriageable age: a young woman of wealth and royal birth, at the prime of her life and beauty.

There is a nuptial theme at work in this passage. “Your king shall come to you,” the prophet says.  The king is portrayed as a conquering hero, a triumphant bridegroom who returns to the royal city to wed one of the princesses.

He comes “meek, riding on an ass,” that is, a donkey.  This is an image taken from Solomon’s coronation procession recorded in 1 Kings 1.  Solomon—whose name means “Peaceful one” from the root shalom, “peace,”—rode through Jerusalem on the day of his coronation seated on his father’s mule.  A donkey or mule was not a battle steed, but provided a more comfortable ride than a horse.  By riding on his father’s mule, Solomon made a social statement: he was not a man of war, but he was his father’s son—his father’s personal mount emphasized the close relationship he had with David.

In Zechariah’s prophecy, then, there is a paradox: this coming king is triumphant—a conquering hero—and yet he conquers in a peaceful way, banishing “horse, chariot, and bow,” the weapons of war.  He banishes them from “Ephraim”—the northern kingdom of Israel composed of predominantly of the ten tribes—and “Jerusalem”—the southern kingdom of Judah composed (mostly) of the two tribes Judah and Benjamin (with others mixed in).  In other words, this king will reunite “all Israel.”

Zechariah’s future king is definitely the Son of David, a kind of New Solomon.  His reign will be “from sea to sea”—that is, from the Mediterranean to the Dead Sea—and from “the River to the Ends of the Earth”—that is, from the Euphrates to the southern Arabian peninsula (Yemen).  This is the realm of Solomon according to 1 Kings 4, Psalm 72, and Psalm 89.  Yet the literal sense of the words have a more expansive meaning: “from sea to sea” and “from the River to the ends of the earth” can also be poetic descriptions of the entire earth.  And indeed, the whole earth was promised to the Son of David already in ancient times.  David calls the covenant he received from God “the charter for humanity” (torah for adam) in 2 Sam 7:19 (see Hebrew), and Psalms 2 and 89 promise the Davidic king universal suzerainty over the other kings of the earth (Ps 2:1-12; 89:27).

Thus, Zechariah sees a coming return of a bridegroom-king to the faithful remnant of God’s people (personified as a royal virgin daughter), and this king will reunite Israel and govern the nations in peace.

2. Responsorial Psalm Ps 145:1-2, 8-9, 10-11, 13-14:

R/ (cf. 1) I will praise your name for ever, my king and my God.
or:
R/ Alleluia.
I will extol you, O my God and King,
and I will bless your name forever and ever.
Every day will I bless you,
and I will praise your name forever and ever.
R/ I will praise your name for ever, my king and my God.
or:
R/ Alleluia.
The LORD is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger and of great kindness.
The LORD is good to all
and compassionate toward all his works.
R/ I will praise your name for ever, my king and my God.
or:
R/ Alleluia.
Let all your works give you thanks, O LORD,
and let your faithful ones bless you.
Let them discourse of the glory of your kingdom
and speak of your might.
R/ I will praise your name for ever, my king and my God.
or:
R/  Alleluia.
The LORD is faithful in all his words
and holy in all his works.
The LORD lifts up all who are falling
and raises up all who are bowed down.
R/ I will praise your name for ever, my king and my God.
or:
R/ Alleluia.

For our Responsorial, Holy Mother Church gives us a very important Psalm, the last Davidic psalm in the whole Psalter, and one of only two psalms to mention “the kingdom of God”, the other being Ps 103.  But Psalm 145 has much more to say about the kingdom of God than 103.  It is the quintessential “kingdom of God” psalm.  In this poem, David, the great king who was promised a universal kingdom, praise God for God’s universal kingdom. David acknowledges that God is the true, eternal, universal king; the implication, then, is that David’s kingdom is just a reflection of the divine reality.  God’s kingdom is characterized by love, mercy, forgiveness, healing, and even resurrection: “lifting up the fallen” and “raising up” the “bowed down.”

3.  Our Second Reading is Romans 8:9, 11-13:

Brothers and sisters:
You are not in the flesh;
on the contrary, you are in the spirit,
if only the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
the one who raised Christ from the dead
will give life to your mortal bodies also,
through his Spirit that dwells in you.
Consequently, brothers and sisters,
we are not debtors to the flesh,
to live according to the flesh.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die,
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body,
you will live.

This Second Reading is not chosen to fit the theme of this Lord’s Day: instead, we are reading semi-continuously through St. Paul’s greatest letter, his Epistle to the Romans, although we are skipping passages that are used prominently at other times in the liturgical year.

This Sunday we find ourselves in Romans 8, the theological heart of the letter.  St. Paul reminds us that we have the Spirit of Christ living in us.  We have the Spirit through faith and the sacraments, especially baptism.  It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that assures us we have eternal life.  This present life has too much suffering and evil to be the object of our hope!  To live joyful lives here and now, we must have a very robust notion of how quick and temporary this life is, and how joyful the next in God’s presence!  The Holy Spirit enables us to live joyfully, with we a peace that “transcends understanding”—i.e. doesn’t make sense from an earthly perspective!—because he lives in our hearts and consoles us by reminding us of heaven!  This is the kingdom of God marked by resurrection described above in Psalm 145.

But there is something we must do.  Salvation is not “by faith alone,” as some have thought.  Our behavior must change.  If we “live according to the flesh, we will die,” but rather we must “put to death the deeds of the body by the spirit.”  This “putting to death” is called in the Catholic tradition mortification, from the Latin words for “death” and “do, make.”  As the saints have taught, we need to live lives of mortification or self-denial if we expect to be saved.  Self-denial keeps us from getting too attached to this present temporal reality, which is quickly passing away and is marked by sin and sadness.  Investing in this life is like investing in the Titanic.  Rather, “store up treasures for yourself in heaven” and “set your minds on things above.”  The practice of small acts of self-denial or mortification through our daily life helps us stay free from attachment to physical things and constantly aware of spiritual reality.  It helps to live more fully, even now, in the eternal kingdom of God.

4. Our Gospel is Matthew 11:25-30:

At that time Jesus exclaimed:
“I give praise to you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
for although you have hidden these things
from the wise and the learned
you have revealed them to little ones.
Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will.
All things have been handed over to me by my Father.
No one knows the Son except the Father,
and no one knows the Father except the Son
and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him.”

“Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened,
and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me,
for I am meek and humble of heart;
and you will find rest for yourselves.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.”

When he says, “all things have been handed over to me by my Father,” we see that Jesus is claiming to be the heir of the universal kingdom of David and the universal kingdom of God.  The two are ultimately one and the same.  Just as David handed all things over to Solomon, who then rode into Jerusalem to claim the throne on a donkey; so God has handed all things over to Jesus, who is also the Son of David. 

The humble mule of David on which Solomon rode was a public statement of the close relationship between father and son.  So here, Jesus emphasizes his intimacy with the Father: “no one knows the Father but the Son.”  Jesus alone, of all religious teachers who have ever lived, understands and experienced God as his Father, and can teach us how to have that relationship.  Buddha, Confucius, Plato, Mohammed, and Moses never even claimed to have that intimacy, much less teach others how to have it.

Now Jesus speaks words of consolation, some favorite verses that many Christians have memorized: “Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.”

The connection is commonly missed, but in this whole passage, Jesus is alluding to 1 Kings 12, the account of the transition from Solomon to Rehoboam, his heir, and the subsequent tragic splitting of the Kingdom of David into North and South. 

After Solomon’s death, the people of Israel came to Rehoboam because they were burdened from forced labor, and wanted rest from heavy taxation.  They pleaded with Rehoboam the crown prince to “lighten their yoke” of taxation and forced labor.  But Rehoboam was arrogant and swaggering: he promised them a “heavy yoke” and an increase in their burdens.  As a result, the northern tribes “divorced” the Son of David and returned to their own homes.  They chose a different king, Jeroboam, and the sorry disintegration of the once-great Kingdom of David began.

In these verses of Matthew, Jesus the Son of David contrasts himself with some of the corrupt and abusive sons of David who preceded him, whose selfishness led to the breaking apart of God’s people.  Jesus comes as the healer and consoler, the one to reunite “Ephraim” the north and “Jerusalem” the south, as we saw in the First Reading.

Jesus did reunite and restore the true Israel around twelve new patriarchs, the Apostles.  The Church the found is the restored kingdom of David, ruled visibly on earth by David’s royal steward, currently an Italian-Argentinian named Francis.  In the Eucharist this Sunday, Jesus approaches us as our bridegroom-king, wedding his nature to ours in a metaphysical marriage of divine and human nature: the two become one flesh.  Are we burdened and heavy laden?  Jesus receives all who are repentant into his kingdom, all who suffer from the weight of their own sins and those of others.  In the Eucharist, we have a foretaste of the sweet union we will enjoy with God in just a very little while, and this foretaste gives us the strength and joy for another week. 

In the morning, when I rise
Give me Jesus,
You can have all this world,
Just give me Jesus.

When I am alone,
Give me Jesus.
You can have all this world,
Just give me Jesus.

When I come to die,
Give me Jesus.
You can have all this world,
Just give me Jesus.


—Jeremy Camp

52 comments:

Brian said...

You guys are truly awesome for giving your time to these reflections. I pray that God bless you richly for providing such wonderful insights.

Anonymous said...

I second your right and good comment Brian.

Anonymous said...

* right and just?

Susan Moore said...

Dr. Bergsma,
I still don’t know if I am yet on the same page as you, so here is a humble reflection from my own life:

The time in my life when I felt the saddest and the most lost occurred the moment when I realized I could not mortify (heal) myself. I found the more I stared at my error (sin), and tried to correct it under my own human power, the more I drowned in sin. Thinking I could obtain holiness by my own works had the net result of actually only adding (again) the sin of pride to an already long list of sins from which I must be freed.

The most joy filled time in my life occurred when I realized Christ already mortified my sin when He died on the cross. He freed me from my sin and made it possible for me, a repentant sinner, to walk joyfully into His waiting embrace. Only His love, alone, can mortify sin. It is just a matter of time for that mortification to be realized, because we yet live in the temporal world, where everything seems to be amplified, magnified, and in slow-motion: even the removal of sin.

So a daily realization of the mortification of my sin occurs not when I stare at my sin and try to fix it, but when I stare at Him and appreciated (worship) the sacrifice He made on the cross in His love for me. When I worship Him, I desire to serve Him in gratefulness. As a consequence of worshiping and serving Him I stop staring at myself, and then besides noticing Him, I notice others. In this being-in-the-moment and worshiping and serving Him, I become more like Him; and thus my human nature is further mortified (sanctified) as I am refined by His love-fire and become more holy; more like Him. I do not have to be at a Mass for this worship to occur, it can occur without ceasing, moment by moment, through both the best of times, as well as the most trialsom of times.
Awareness of freedom from sin seemed to come in quickening leaps and bounds once I consciously committed to coming with Him while living a Spirit-filled, Spirit-led life. Living with Christ at the center of my life is an intentional life: the moment I stop fixing my gaze on Him, and therefore allow worshiping Him to fall out of the center of my moment-by-moment life, I simultaneously revert to sinning. Otherwise, ridding myself of my own human nature has nothing to do with me or my human works, for my sinful and hopeless human nature died with Him on the cross.
Once I committed to getting out of His way by giving myself and my life into His hands and eagerly walking with Him in faith, regardless of whatever the cost to me seemed to be, I then was given the strength to allow Him to work tirelessly through me for the good of others, because it is no longer my power, but His, which works through me.

Donovan said...

To Susan Moore:

I don't know the seriousness of your sinful nature but, of your comments, I agree! I myself, have falling into the "pit". In my case it took this kind of "total humiliation" to break my "pride" and surrender to God's will. The death of my "old self" was a blessing, given to me which germinated the birth of a "new creation" How wondrous are the works of the Holy Spirit!!!

Donovan

Anonymous said...

@ Susan Moore

John is correcting antinomianism i.e. the idea that faith frees us from the obligation to do good and not to sin e.g. not observing the Sabbath, which is what the Sunday Mass obligation is all about. I'm sure he'd be in agreement with you and Pope Benedict in saying that 'we are [only] just when we enter into communion with Christ' (http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/on-st-paul-and-justification) and that we must therefore never 'stop fixing [our] gaze on him'. But the point is that to be 'living with Christ', we must conform ourselves to him; as Jesus put it: 'if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me'. Of course, this self denial is ultimately about a spiritual state, but because the body is a real part of the human person, physical mortification can help lead us to a state in which we can more completely follow Christ.

Anonymous said...

@ Susan Moore

What does this mean: "we yet live in the temporal world, where everything seems to be amplified, magnified, and in slow-motion: even the removal of sin?"

It sounds deep and intelligent, but makes absolutely no sense. In truth we live in a world where everything seems to be just the opposite. The removal of sin here in the flesh is offered to us every time we utilize the sacraments and its instantaneous. We walk by faith now, then we shall see (amplified and magnified after death). Slow moving also doesnt just apply to the forgiveness of sins. We live in a day and age where we are so busy we sometimes dont even have time for the simple things: Like taking 10-20 minutes out of our day thanking the Lord for everything he has given to us. This society is so spiritually caffeinated that we have forgotten the simple. Slow motion makes little sense. Perhaps amplified and magnified in the sense of Satan makes sin seem bigger and more powerful than it actually is. Now that I could see.

Susan Moore said...

Anonymous,
Thank you.
Antinomianism is a protestant word (I looked it up). For the record, I was raised Catholic, left the church when I was 17, then when I was about 40 I reentered a church, and it was a protestant church. However, as I learn or relearn Catholicism I have discovered that, without realizing it at the time, I was emphatically (:-)) teaching Catholicism to the protestants. At the time I wasn’t trying to teach anything in particular, but I had been reading the Bible since I was 12 and was simply sharing my thoughts on what the Word seems to say. Miraculously healed and finally able to be in community with other Christians, I was very excited and wanted to compare notes, so to speak. Curiously, what I taught the ‘lay’ protestant’s actually appreciated, but then they’d go to their preachers with their questions…

So, I think I’ve counted at least 10 different denominations of protestant churches I attended over a 12 year period. The preachers could never win an argument against me (those who would meet with me), but I did not understand at the time that that was because they believed in relative truth. So, when I won an argument, I figured we were finally making headway and their eyes were opening to the truth. However, it just set them more against me and closed down communication between us. I did not understand at the time that the communication was not between two Bible studiers, but was, instead, between a protester (believer in relative truth) and a Catholic (believer in absolute truth), and that communication had never been opened, in the first place. It never occurred to me that the preachers didn’t want me in their churches because I was (unknowingly) teaching Catholicism, I just thought they didn’t know how to read the Bible, and I wanted to help them understand so that they could become saved and healed.
I loved them.

When I ran out of local denominations, in sadness and frustration, I asked Jesus, “Where do I go, now?” And in that moment He told me to go back to my beginning, to where I started, and retrace my denominational steps. Delighted to have received and answer so immediately, without further thought that Saturday I attended Mass in the parish in which I lived. Jesus was there and waiting for me as I realized my 35 year wilderness walk was over, and He had brought me home.

But I see the same kind of antinomianism thinking was going on in Paul’s day. Thanks for the link to Zenit.org, it will help a lot.
I think I need a dictionary of Catholic words.
Time to go and study Latin.
P.S. I was writing this as you were adding the second note. Give me a minute, it makes sense.

Susan Moore said...

Anonymous,
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.

Even though we (humans) are spiritual beings in physical bodies, we now live in a temporal world while we are in our mortal earthling form. Later, we will reside with God in the eternal world in our spiritual bodies.

The temporal world I am referring to, then, is the world of the physical and measurable created things that will only exist in that form within the bounds of measurable time. Prior to measurable time and after measurable time, the created things have not and will not exist in their current physical and measurable forms.

This period of measurable time, then, can be thought of as a microscopic slice of eternity, but because this temporal period and everything of it is measurable, things to earthlings seem more amplified and magnified, and move slower over the course of measurable time than what will be revealed to be true when this temporal period is looked back on when we exist in our spiritual bodies in eternal timelessness.

That is to say, in contrast to how we tend to view our lives as mortal earthlings, when we are in our spiritual bodies the time spent in our earthling bodies will seem like a vapor that briefly appeared and then vanished (James 4:14).

P.S. Besides His eternal people being in the middle of Matthew, as His physical creations we are, indeed, in media res.

Anonymous said...

Susan I dont have time to read this. Frankly, I could care less. Your putting a world of focus on posts. Part 1, part 5, part 1000. Week after week on this blog you put the focus on yourself. If you want to say something constructive on a blog than go ahead and do so. Its great to hear from a knowledgeable woman of the way God has changed you and all the good things hes doing in your life and everything going on in your heart. You have good intentions. You really do, and Im sure the Lord has in fact blessed you. Im happy for you and your conversion...But there also really is a level of self focus in your posts. People get on here to make a constructive comment on the subject on hand, not use the subject on hand to speak about their whole entire life and break it into multiple parts. Im not discouraging you from posting. I'm really not. Your posts have challenged me to be a better person. But try to keep it short and sweet and to the point.

heidi said...

Susan and Anonymous:
I have to agree that these comments should be to contribute, or ask for further clarification about the post that these wonderful scholars share with us out of the goodness of their hearts. The opportunity to comment should not be commandeered as a platform for cathartic stream of consciousness.
That being said, (by two fellow TSP readers), I recognize from Susan's posts that you are in serious need of a foundation of fundamental theology.
I am happy to direct you to good reading material and you can also go to my blog which is meant to teach the basics of the faith, and I will do my best to address your comments when you need clarification on points, or recommendations.
It is cafecatechesis.com.

De Maria said...

Anonymous said...
Susan I dont have time to read this.


Then skip it.

Frankly, I could care less.

You don't have time to read, but you have time to be rude?

Your putting a world of focus on posts. Part 1, part 5, part 1000. Week after week on this blog you put the focus on yourself. If you want to say something constructive on a blog than go ahead and do so. Its great to hear from a knowledgeable woman of the way God has changed you and all the good things hes doing in your life and everything going on in your heart. You have good intentions. You really do, and Im sure the Lord has in fact blessed you. Im happy for you and your conversion...But there also really is a level of self focus in your posts. People get on here to make a constructive comment on the subject on hand, not use the subject on hand to speak about their whole entire life and break it into multiple parts.

1. The author of the blog is not complaining.
2. Where's the rule book where you're getting this?
3. Who made you the comment police?
4. How you remove yourself from your writings. You are the one complaining that you have no time. Its not all about you.

Im not discouraging you from posting.

Sounds like that's exactly what you are doing.

I'm really not. Your posts have challenged me to be a better person. But try to keep it short and sweet and to the point.

Here's a suggestion, if you don't have time to read a long comment, skim it or skip it. My posts are generally long. And I reserve the right to make self revelations like that whenever I please.

Did it ever occur to you that someone else might enjoy reading her comments, just as they are?

De Maria said...

John Bergsma said:
The connection is commonly missed, but in this whole passage, Jesus is alluding to 1 Kings 12, the account of the transition from Solomon to Rehoboam, his heir, and the subsequent tragic splitting of the Kingdom of David into North and South.

I sure did, thanks for making the connection.

De Maria said...

Susan said,

Anonymous Susan Moore said…
Hello Susan,

You said:

The time in my life when I felt the saddest and the most lost occurred the moment when I realized I could not mortify (heal) myself. I found the more I stared at my error (sin), and tried to correct it under my own human power, the more I drowned in sin. Thinking I could obtain holiness by my own works had the net result of actually only adding (again) the sin of pride to an already long list of sins from which I must be freed.

That reminds me of what St. Paul said:
Romans 7:23-25King James Version (KJV)

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The most joy filled time in my life occurred when I realized Christ already mortified my sin when He died on the cross. He freed me from my sin and made it possible for me, a repentant sinner, to walk joyfully into His waiting embrace. Only His love, alone, can mortify sin. It is just a matter of time for that mortification to be realized, because we yet live in the temporal world, where everything seems to be amplified, magnified, and in slow-motion: even the removal of sin.

So a daily realization of the mortification of my sin occurs not when I stare at my sin and try to fix it, but when I stare at Him and appreciated (worship) the sacrifice He made on the cross in His love for me.


This is the consistent advice of the Saints.
Hebrews 12:2King James Version (KJV)

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


When I worship Him, I desire to serve Him in gratefulness. As a consequence of worshiping and serving Him I stop staring at myself, and then besides noticing Him, I notice others. In this being-in-the-moment and worshiping and serving Him, I become more like Him; and thus my human nature is further mortified (sanctified) as I am refined by His love-fire and become more holy; more like Him. I do not have to be at a Mass for this worship to occur, it can occur without ceasing, moment by moment, through both the best of times, as well as the most trialsom of times.

That paragraph is rich in meaning. Again, it reminds me of the writings of the Saints, especially, St. Catherine Siena who said:
"Love transforms one into what one loves." Dialogue 60

Awareness of freedom from sin seemed to come in quickening leaps and bounds once I consciously committed to coming with Him while living a Spirit-filled, Spirit-led life. Living with Christ at the center of my life is an intentional life: the moment I stop fixing my gaze on Him, and therefore allow worshiping Him to fall out of the center of my moment-by-moment life, I simultaneously revert to sinning. Otherwise, ridding myself of my own human nature has nothing to do with me or my human works, for my sinful and hopeless human nature died with Him on the cross.
Once I committed to getting out of His way by giving myself and my life into His hands and eagerly walking with Him in faith, regardless of whatever the cost to me seemed to be, I then was given the strength to allow Him to work tirelessly through me for the good of others, because it is no longer my power, but His, which works through me.


Galatians 2:20King James Version (KJV)

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Thanks for that beautiful heart-felt comment. Very instructive.

De Maria said...

Hello anonymous, you said:
Anonymous Anonymous said...
@ Susan Moore

What does this mean: "we yet live in the temporal world, where everything seems to be amplified, magnified, and in slow-motion: even the removal of sin?"


It means that life drags on. When people are in pain, time is magnified. The pain takes forever to go away. Have you ever stubbed your toe? It may hurt for only a few seconds, but it seems way too long.

It sounds deep and intelligent,

It is deep and intelligent.

but makes absolutely no sense.

It sounds to me as though you're making a pretext in order to tell us something you want to say.

In truth we live in a world where everything seems to be just the opposite. The removal of sin here in the flesh is offered to us every time we utilize the sacraments and its instantaneous. We walk by faith now, then we shall see (amplified and magnified after death). Slow moving also doesnt just apply to the forgiveness of sins. We live in a day and age where we are so busy we sometimes dont even have time for the simple things: Like taking 10-20 minutes out of our day thanking the Lord for everything he has given to us. This society is so spiritually caffeinated that we have forgotten the simple. Slow motion makes little sense. Perhaps amplified and magnified in the sense of Satan makes sin seem bigger and more powerful than it actually is. Now that I could see.

That's just your point of view. In this world, everything is magnified for us so that we can perceive it. Time goes by excruciatingly slow, that why everyone hurries up. Time doesn't move faster because we do. You sound like a person who has never been stuck in bumper to bumper traffic when you're late for work.

De Maria said...

Anonymous Susan Moore said...
Anonymous,
Thank you.
Antinomianism is a protestant word (I looked it up). For the record, I was raised Catholic, left the church when I was 17, then when I was about 40 I reentered a church, and it was a protestant church. However, as I learn or relearn Catholicism I have discovered that, without realizing it at the time, I was emphatically (:-)) teaching Catholicism to the protestants. ….


Sounds as though you were God's instrument even when you were away from the Church. Welcome back to the fullness of the faith!

Sincerely,

De Maria

Susan Moore said...

Thank you De Maria, Heidi and Anonymous, for your guidance and welcoming! Thank you all for caring (I'm speaking to you, too, Anonymous. If you didn't care you wouldn't have responded.)
It’s curious how the squabbling of siblings lends a feeling of comfortable familiarity to the homecoming, sort of like the hum of my new neighborhood I now recognize as it wafts through my open window.
It seems good when some things stay the same.
Blessings,
Susan

Anonymous said...

So your blessing the fact that you welcome squabbling and that makes you feel at home? Thats horrible. Your blessing creating division which runs entirely contrary to the message of the gospel: Forgive those who wronged you. Maybe if you forgive them, you will find that they forgive you back.

Susan Moore said...

Anonymous,
I don't ask God to bless facts, I ask God to bless people. I do not see how God's blessings can cause division, because God does not divide His own house.
Does not the Bible tell us to pray for (specifically) all believers, whether or not the believers share the same opinions? Are we not even instructed to pray for, serve and do good for all people, even our 'enemies'? And are we not instructed to unconditionally forgive others so that Christ can forgive us? Does He not beseech us to 'turn the other cheek' and lose our defensiveness?
I do not feel I have been wronged. I've been through a great deal in my life, it would take more than someone disagreeing with me for me to feel offended. In fact, I'm not sure what it would take for me to feel offended at this point in my life.
I neither welcome sibling squabbling or resist it: that form of communication simply feels familiar from before I left the Church when I was 17. Squabbling between brothers and sisters in Christ is no more dangerous or scary than squabbling between my biological siblings. Disagreements are part of being human, they are a fact of life (for now), therefore, it seems important to keep it in perspective: the Lord God made us all, loves us all and died for us all, and we are to love others as He loves us. He loves us the same whether we are squabbling or not squabbling. His love is complete and unchanging, as our love for Him and others will finally one day be.
But until then, I pray for His blessings on us all.
Grace and peace,
Susan

Anonymous said...

Your not listening, so there is no point in engaging you any further in this. God does not bless those who simply ask for blessing on self or others. He blesses those who ask for it with contrite heart. If your heart is actually contrite than blessing will fall on you for your blessing. If it is incontrite than you are effectively curing yourself and condemning yourself to unnecessary suffering in the life to come. That's not a matter between me and you or you and anyone else on this blog for that matter, its a matter between you and God. You have my fair mind: If you want to add something meaningful to a blog than go ahead and make a comment, but it would be best to keep it to the point while putting the focus away from yourself or out of relevance of the blog post and leave room for others to say something. You have to make the decision to do that. No one can make you do anything.

De Maria said...

Anonymous said...
So your blessing the fact that you welcome squabbling and that makes you feel at home? Thats horrible.


Why? Jesus Christ Himself brought division.
Luke 12:50-53King James Version (KJV)

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Your blessing creating division which runs entirely contrary to the message of the gospel: Forgive those who wronged you. Maybe if you forgive them, you will find that they forgive you back.

What Gospel are you reading Anonymous? Jesus said:

Luke 17:4King James Version (KJV)

4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

First, repent, then you shall be forgiven. But I have not heard you repent of your rudeness towards Susan. And yet, from the tone of her messages, she clearly has forgiven you.

Anonymous also said...
Your not listening,


She certainly is listening. More importantly, she is listening to God. To whom are you listening? Certainly not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

so there is no point in engaging you any further in this. God does not bless those who simply ask for blessing on self or others.

Since when?

He blesses those who ask for it with contrite heart.

She has expressed her contrite heart eloquently and you belittled her. You said you could care less. So, where is your heart?

If your heart is actually contrite than blessing will fall on you for your blessing. If it is incontrite than you are effectively curing yourself and condemning yourself to unnecessary suffering in the life to come. That's not a matter between me and you or you and anyone else on this blog for that matter, its a matter between you and God.

Then why are you questioning her heart? You are right, it is between her and God. So, why are you accusing her of being false? Can you read her heart? Can you read anyone's?

1 Corinthians 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

You have my fair mind: If you want to add something meaningful to a blog than go ahead and make a comment, but it would be best to keep it to the point while putting the focus away from yourself or out of relevance of the blog post and leave room for others to say something. You have to make the decision to do that. No one can make you do anything.

Who made you the comment police? In my opinion, her comments are the most meaningful that I have read on any blog in a long time. What makes your opinion better than anyone else's that you should tell her how to write her comments?

I'll say it again. It's not all about you. If its all right with you, or if it isn't, I would prefer to continue reading whatever she wants to write.

Anonymous said...

Your policing my comments. You have your opinion, I have mine. I don't think her posts are edifying. I think she does have some good things to say, and has the potential for good things to say. There is a good knowledge of the scriptures that she seems to have... But overall they are self focused and of a negative nature. I'm not the first to have stated this. You seem pretty defensive about them staying up so I don't see much of a point in arguing about it. (I would never read the King James version of the gospel. That's probably partly whats happening here. The King James version has some bad transnational issues)

Anonymous said...

In fact, I move for a vote of no confidence in this entire arguement. I think at heart, its about translation errors. Take a look. Maybe this will help:

http://www.davnet.org/kevin/articles/kjvbible.html

Susan Moore said...

Hi Anonymous,
Thank you for your persistence and discernment! Now we are getting somewhere, and past the squabbling.
It would be extremely helpful to my budding understanding of these things if you could look at the KJV translations that De Maria gave, or the scriptures I indirectly referenced (I use the NAB 1971, it is the only Catholic Bible I have), and compare them to the same verses from the Bible you prefer to use, and then show me how they differ in meaning. I do not see the difference in those verses, but that is why I’m in school –to learn!
I can see my writings have offended you. Please know I do not desire to offend anyone. I am very, very sorry to have hurt you in any way. Will you please forgive me?
Susan

heidi said...

Susan (and De Maria),

I highly recommend this mp3:
http://store.catholicproductions.com/introduction-to-the-bible-inspiration-inerrancy-interpretation-and-the-interior-life-mp3/

Actually, I've listened to all Dr. Bergsma's and Dr. Pitre's mp3's available from Catholic productions and I can't recommend them highly enough.

In fact, here is a less expensive, shorter alternative:

http://store.catholicproductions.com/the-origin-of-the-bible-human-invention-or-divine-intervention-mp3/

Unless you have a very solid understanding of your faith, you will probably not be aware of why some translations are problematic. For instance, in non Catholic translations like the Niv and the Kjv, the term "tradition" is only translated as such when it is used in a derogatory sense. When used in a positive sense the word "customs" is employed- even though the word in Greek is the same. These little nuances will pop out in passages whose meaning is contested between Catholics and Protestants.

Anyway, listen to a real teacher like Bergsma or Pitre by taking advantage of the amazing classes they offer on Catholic Productions.

De Maria said...

Anonymous said...
Your policing my comments.


I'm simply responding to your comments. You are the one complaining that Susan should change the way she comments.

You have your opinion, I have mine. I don't think her posts are edifying.

That is true. And I don't think yours are edifying.

I think she does have some good things to say, and has the potential for good things to say.

But who are you? And who made you judge of what is good and what isn't? Why should we care if you think that anything is edifying or not?

There is a good knowledge of the scriptures that she seems to have... But overall they are self focused and of a negative nature.

You are the one which is producing the negative comments. I find her comments very positive and very edifying.

I'm not the first to have stated this. You seem pretty defensive about them staying up so I don't see much of a point in arguing about it. (I would never read the King James version of the gospel. That's probably partly whats happening here. The King James version has some bad transnational issues)

What are you talking about now? Did the verses I used from the KJV contradict Catholic Teaching? If they did, show me how. Otherwise, what is your objection?

And you have yet to show me why you have authority over the comment section to tell people how to comment. Now, you claimed to care less about whatever Susan said. If that is true, why should anyone care about what you say?

De Maria said...

Anonymous heidi said...
Susan (and De Maria),

I highly recommend this mp3:
http://store.catholicproductions.com/introduction-to-the-bible-inspiration-inerrancy-interpretation-and-the-interior-life-mp3/


Thanks.

Actually, I've listened to all Dr. Bergsma's and Dr. Pitre's mp3's available from Catholic productions and I can't recommend them highly enough.

In fact, here is a less expensive, shorter alternative:

http://store.catholicproductions.com/the-origin-of-the-bible-human-invention-or-divine-intervention-mp3/


Ok.

Unless you have a very solid understanding of your faith, you will probably not be aware of why some translations are problematic. For instance, in non Catholic translations like the Niv and the Kjv, the term "tradition" is only translated as such when it is used in a derogatory sense.

Really? In what sense is this derogatory?
2 Thessalonians 2:15King James Version (KJV)

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Or this:

2 Thessalonians 3:6King James Version (KJV)

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

When used in a positive sense the word "customs" is employed- even though the word in Greek is the same. These little nuances will pop out in passages whose meaning is contested between Catholics and Protestants.

Don't believe the hype. The KJV and all Bibles that I have read with the exception of the New World translation used by the Jehovahs, ALL support Catholic Doctrine. ALL OF THEM. And, if you listen to that great apologist from LA, Jesse Romero even uses the New World Translation to disprove Jehovah Witness doctrines.

Anyway, listen to a real teacher like Bergsma or Pitre by taking advantage of the amazing classes they offer on Catholic Productions.

Thank you. If I didn't admire their work, I wouldn't be contributing to this blog. Your blog looks pretty good too. Kudos!

Sincerely,

De Maria

Anonymous said...

@ De Maria:

If the King James version supports all catholic doctrine, than where is are the Deuterocanonical books? I'm seeing multiple books of the bible missing that are in our Sunday readings that are simply not there. You cant support Catholic doctrine and leave out seven books that made it in around the foundation of Christianity.

De Maria said...

Anonymous said...
@ De Maria:

If the King James version supports all catholic doctrine,


It does.

than where is are the Deuterocanonical books?

The original King James had the Deuterocanonical books in a section labeled "the Apocrypha".

I'm seeing multiple books of the bible missing that are in our Sunday readings that are simply not there.

That's cause you're not using the right KJV.

You cant support Catholic doctrine and leave out seven books that made it in around the foundation of Christianity.

Yes, I can. I've been doing that for about twenty years now. Even the 66 book Protestant Bible supports all Catholic Doctrines. If you don't think it does, then name the Catholic Doctrine which you claim isn't supported by the 66 book Protestant canon. Show me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Susan Moore said...

De Maria,

In reflecting on this blog response discussion, it seems that we (Catholics) sometimes (often) erroneously believe that uniformity means the same thing as unity. It does not. We can each be effective soldiers in the Kingdom of God and yet march to various rhythms. He created each of us equal in worth in His eyes, and yet He created each of us unique, and then gave us each various histories, interests, giftings and Kingdom purposes to fulfill.

As you have so expertly pointed out, the difficulty with using any Bible is not so much in the translation as it is in the interpretation.

From an evangelistic standpoint, given my love for the protesters of absolute truth, I’ve noticed that my love for them is more likely to be perceived by them when I reference one of their Bibles, instead of a Catholic Bible.

Somewhat unrelated question: would you (or anyone) happen to know of a concordance for the 73 book Bible based from a translation from the original languages? Or a concordance for the KJV 1611 would do, as long as it includes at least the 73 books. I can’t find one and really need one, otherwise I have to learn Hebrew and make one for those 7 OT books.

De Maria said...

Susan Moore said...
De Maria,

In reflecting on this blog response discussion, it seems that we (Catholics) sometimes (often) erroneously believe that uniformity means the same thing as unity. It does not. We can each be effective soldiers in the Kingdom of God and yet march to various rhythms. He created each of us equal in worth in His eyes, and yet He created each of us unique, and then gave us each various histories, interests, giftings and Kingdom purposes to fulfill.


That is correct. We are united in the Body of Christ but we are not the same. We are individuals. The Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 12:11-13King James Version (KJV)

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

We are one body, but we are not uniform. We are individuals.

As you have so expertly pointed out, the difficulty with using any Bible is not so much in the translation as it is in the interpretation.

From an evangelistic standpoint, given my love for the protesters of absolute truth, I’ve noticed that my love for them is more likely to be perceived by them when I reference one of their Bibles, instead of a Catholic Bible.


That is why I use the KJV. I talk to Protestants more often than not. Most of them prefer the KJV.

Somewhat unrelated question: would you (or anyone) happen to know of a concordance for the 73 book Bible based from a translation from the original languages? Or a concordance for the KJV 1611 would do, as long as it includes at least the 73 books.

To purchase? Stephen Ray recommends Verbum.

I also did a quick search and this came up:

Catholic Concordance

This is free and online. It doesn't look like a concordance though. But it seems like it would be very helpful. I think I'll book mark it myself.

I can’t find one and really need one, otherwise I have to learn Hebrew and make one for those 7 OT books.

:) That wouldn't help. The purported reason the Jews removed them from their Canon is because they aren't written in Hebrew. They are written in Greek. Although, it was mainly because Jesus used the Greek Septuagint Old Testament and they wanted to distance themselves as much as possible from Christianity.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria


Anonymous said...

@ De Maria

Your using what is called by many theologians a "Previlaged King James edition" This is unique to one edition, and doesnt fit the standard of what is typically referred to as a King James Bible. This privileged edition has a section put off to the side for those books. This basically conveys the message: "Here is what Catholics read for reference. Its interesting, but dont look at this as part of the bible you just read. Use it more for spiritual meditation.... Its like putting viet nam right after the exodus.

Its not to say that the old English doesn't have a certain ring to it... It does capture the readers attention. But really I just don't see those books in your typical King James edition and I cant give praise to something when I can't see major books of scripture as part of the chronological history that's there.

Susan Moore said...

De Maria,
Very cool, thank you!!
I love how you simply offer factual information and then allow me to decide what to do with that information, you do not insist I march to a rhythm of which my King-spouse has not designed me to dance.

One of the main complaints I hear from non-Catholics is that the Catholic people can be so unlovingly insistent that uniformity and unity mean the same thing. Many of them can agree with the Catholic beliefs, but because of this apparent fear many Catholics seem to express when one of His marches to a different rhythm, the non-Catholics do not want to become Catholics.

I can only think to tell them four things: First, perfect love casts out all fear, therefore one day all fear and unlovingness will no longer be there. Second, we all grow at different rates but for the same good purpose: those people who seem disagreeable and unloving are actually following Him and trying their best to protect the budding Catholic from the grasps of Satan and one’s own human nature. Third, there will always be a rational human reason that supports our wrong decisions (such as why one should not decide in favor of joining one’s parish). Finally, we do not go to Mass to worship people: it is not about us.

I enjoy my chronological NKJV and NIV, it was interesting to learn that the writings of the Bible are not in chronological order, and to actually read them in chronological order. It makes for a yet stronger reading. I wonder if there is a chronological Catholic Bible.

De Maria said...

Anonymous said...
@ De Maria

Your using what is called by many theologians a "Previlaged King James edition" This is unique to one edition, and doesnt fit the standard of what is typically referred to as a King James Bible.


Lol! Regardless of what they're called, you'll find them for a dollar at almost any dollar store and really cheap at almost every used bookstore. You will also find them here and here.

This privileged edition has a section put off to the side for those books.

That is what I told you in a previous message.

This basically conveys the message: "Here is what Catholics read for reference. Its interesting, but dont look at this as part of the bible you just read. Use it more for spiritual meditation.... Its like putting viet nam right after the exodus.

Actually, no. The reason why they are "set aside" in that manner is widely known. Your speculation, as imaginative as it might be, is wrong.
1. Catholics don't read them for reference alone. Or shouldn't. The Catholic Church teaches that they are the INSPIRED Word of God.
2. Luther tried to cast them out of his version of the Bible. But other Protestants put them back in as "reference" books for enlightened reading, but did not consider them inspired.

Its not to say that the old English doesn't have a certain ring to it... It does capture the readers attention. But really I just don't see those books in your typical King James edition and I cant give praise to something when I can't see major books of scripture as part of the chronological history that's there.

1. No one asked for your praise.
2. Its not about you, Anonymous. It really isn't.
3. I have been using the KJV for perhaps 15 years now because I talk to Protestants daily. And that is the version of the Bible which most of them prefer. After all that time, I have become accustomed to using it. So, whether I have your approval or not, I will continue to use it. I hope we understand each other.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria said...

Anonymous Susan Moore said...
De Maria,
Very cool, thank you!!
I love how you simply offer factual information and then allow me to decide what to do with that information, you do not insist I march to a rhythm of which my King-spouse has not designed me to dance.

One of the main complaints I hear from non-Catholics is that the Catholic people can be so unlovingly insistent that uniformity and unity mean the same thing. Many of them can agree with the Catholic beliefs, but because of this apparent fear many Catholics seem to express when one of His marches to a different rhythm, the non-Catholics do not want to become Catholics.

I can only think to tell them four things: First, perfect love casts out all fear, therefore one day all fear and unlovingness will no longer be there. Second, we all grow at different rates but for the same good purpose: those people who seem disagreeable and unloving are actually following Him and trying their best to protect the budding Catholic from the grasps of Satan and one’s own human nature. Third, there will always be a rational human reason that supports our wrong decisions (such as why one should not decide in favor of joining one’s parish). Finally, we do not go to Mass to worship people: it is not about us.


THAT is very cool! You should study the Saints, if you don't already, you speak very much as they do.

I enjoy my chronological NKJV and NIV, it was interesting to learn that the writings of the Bible are not in chronological order, and to actually read them in chronological order. It makes for a yet stronger reading. I wonder if there is a chronological Catholic Bible.

Oh yeah! A revert to the Catholic faith, Jeff Cavins, narrates a chronological Bible. Here's the Cavins' website.

Or you can purchase it here

I'm not sure, but this sounds as though it is a free Bible Study, offered by Jeff Cavins.

And of course, Scott Hahn offers an online Bible Study for free.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Anonymous said...

I love the dollar store! Ill check it out. If its there ill buy it. If anything it will be a great way to brush up on my old English. When I first arrived in America a few years ago, the whole dollar store concept was quite different. But I love going there and will consider some of your thoughts on it. If I can find it there, I'll buy it.

Heidi said...

USCCB Approved Translations of the Sacred Scriptures for Private Use and Study by Catholics
1983 - Present

The 1983 Code of Canon Law entrusts to the Apostolic See and the episcopal conferences the authority to approve translations of the Sacred Scriptures in the Latin Catholic Church (c. 825, §1). Prior to 1983, Scriptural translations could be approved by the Apostolic See or by a local ordinary within a diocese.

What follows is a complete list of the translations of the Sacred Scriptures that have received the approval of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops since 1983.

In addition to the translations listed below, any translation of the Sacred Scriptures that has received proper ecclesiastical approval ‒ namely, by the Apostolic See or a local ordinary prior to 1983, or by the Apostolic See or an episcopal conference following 1983 ‒ may be used by the Catholic faithful for private prayer and study.


Books of the New Testament, Alba House

Contemporary English Version - New Testament, First Edition, American Bible Society

Contemporary English Version - Book of Psalms, American Bible Society

Contemporary English Version - Book of Proverbs, American Bible Society

The Grail Psalter (Inclusive Language Version), G.I.A. Publications

New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE)

New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition, National Council of Churches

The Psalms, Alba House

The Psalms (New International Version) - St. Joseph Catholic Edition, Catholic Book Publishing Company

The Psalms - St. Joseph New Catholic Version, Catholic Book Publishing Company

Revised Psalms of the New American Bible (1991)

So You May Believe, A Translation of the Four Gospels, Alba House

Today's English Version, Second Edition, American Bible Society

Translation for Early Youth, A Translation of the New Testament for Children, Contemporary English Version, American Bible Society

Heidi said...

2)



Vatican II in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 25, is clear as to even non-infallible doctrine on faith or morals:
“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra..."

We ARE not free to choose willy nilly from among bible translations as both De Maria and Susan seem to be saying.Holy Mother Church decides which translations are most edifying and gives us many to choose from.
What we ARE free to do is submit in loyal obedience to Our Mother- who makes these guidelines for the protection and flowering of our spiritual life.

If you want to be a saint, which you are obligated to as a result of the free gift of grace you have been given-
Obedience comes before all else!


If you love the language style ofthe kjv,which is beautiful and lyrical, its translation is based on the vulgate, so perhaps the Douey Reims version would suit you?


Lastly, De Maria: Luther never attempted to remove the 7 disputed books from the canon. He simply demoted them.

"Martin Luther and the Origin of the Protestant Bible (16th Cent. A.D.)
1. Common Misconception (Michuta, Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger)
a. Martin Luther “removed” the 7 Books from His Bible
b. Fact: during 15-1600’s almost all Protestant Bibles included the 7 Books c. Real Story: Luther denied the canonical status of the 7 Books
d. This eventually led to the disappearance of the 7 Books from Prot. Bibles"
- excerpt from Pitre's outline 'Origin of the Bible'


Also, keep in mind that 'uniformity' is not a bad thing as long as the object of the uniformity is God's will. Like the burning bush, we retain our 'essence' (personhood) always, but in being united -indeed uniform- with God's will, expressed through the Church for example, we actually become more ourselves than ever. Because only then are we truly free persons.



De Maria: the holy and venerable practice of praying for the dead (the souls in purgatory) is found only in 2 Macc... Your statement about the kjv supporting all Catholic doctrine was erroneous.


Thanks for the kudos on the blog De Maria!

Heidi said...

The samples of approved translations that i put in my post was not
Exhaustive. You can get the full list from usccb website

De Maria said...

Anonymous said...
I love the dollar store!


Me too.

Ill check it out. If its there ill buy it. If anything it will be a great way to brush up on my old English. When I first arrived in America a few years ago, the whole dollar store concept was quite different. But I love going there and will consider some of your thoughts on it. If I can find it there, I'll buy it.

You may have gotten the wrong idea in our discussion. I don't endorse the KJV. I use it because I evangelize Protestants and most Protestants prefer it. And I have met very few Protestants who reject it. My favorite Bible is the Douay. I love the old texts which say:

Genesis 3: [15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Or

Luke 1: . [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

So, where are you from originally?

De Maria said...

Heidi said...
USCCB Approved Translations of the Sacred Scriptures for Private Use and Study by Catholics
1983 - Present….


ok

9:06 AM
Heidi also said...
2)

Vatican II in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 25, is clear as to even non-infallible doctrine on faith or morals:
“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra…"


Are you accusing me of disobeying the Pope?

We ARE not free to choose willy nilly from among bible translations as both De Maria and Susan seem to be saying.

Hm? This is a twist that you have added to that which you have posted. Please show me where the Catholic Church has condemned the use of the KJV. I see where the Catholic Church has endorsed certain Bibles. But I don't see an official condemnation of the KJV. In fact, here is an article by Catholic Answers, bearing a Nihil Obstat and yet there is no condemnation of the KJV or any Protestant version mentioned.

Holy Mother Church decides which translations are most edifying and gives us many to choose from.

True. And two of my favorite Bibles are from that list. The Douay and the RSV-CE.

What we ARE free to do is submit in loyal obedience to Our Mother- who makes these guidelines for the protection and flowering of our spiritual life.

If you want to be a saint, which you are obligated to as a result of the free gift of grace you have been given-
Obedience comes before all else!


No argument. But you seem to be suggesting that I'm disobeying the Church so I'll expect an explicit explanation or an apology.

cont'd

De Maria said...

cont'd

Heidi also said:
If you love the language style ofthe kjv,which is beautiful and lyrical, its translation is based on the vulgate, so perhaps the Douey Reims version would suit you?

I use the KJV to evangelize Protestants.

Lastly, De Maria: Luther never attempted to remove the 7 disputed books from the canon. He simply demoted them.

Lol! "He simply demoted them."??? By what authority? How do you demote the Word of God? He rejected their inspiration and canonicity, effectively, he removed them from the Bible.

"Martin Luther and the Origin of the Protestant Bible (16th Cent. A.D.)
1. Common Misconception (Michuta, Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger)
a. Martin Luther “removed” the 7 Books from His Bible….


That depends upon how you want to spin that. Do you really believe that by rejecting the Divine Inspiration of the Deuterocanon, Martin Luther did something good and right?

What do you think it means "to deny canonical status" to the Deuterocanon? Do you think that means that he still considered the Word of God? And if he did not consider them the Word of God, how do you interpret that to mean that he considered them still part of the Bible?

Luther's canon:Deuterocanonical books
Main articles: Deuterocanonical books and Biblical apocrypha
Luther eliminated the deuterocanonical books from the Catholic Old Testament, terming them "Apocrypha, that are books which are not considered equal to the Holy Scriptures, but are useful and good to read".[4]….


Also, keep in mind that 'uniformity' is not a bad thing as long as the object of the uniformity is God's will.

Who said it was a bad thing? But does God expect you and I to be identical in everything we do?

CCC791 The body's unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: ….….

Like the burning bush, we retain our 'essence' (personhood) always, but in being united -indeed uniform- with God's will, expressed through the Church for example, we actually become more ourselves than ever. Because only then are we truly free persons.

The Church does not use the word, "uniform" in describing the members of the Body of Christ.

u·ni·form
ˈyo͞onəˌfôrm/Submit
adjective
1.
not changing in form or character; remaining the same in all cases and at all times.

Our beliefs are uniform, but individuals are diverse.

De Maria: the holy and venerable practice of praying for the dead (the souls in purgatory) is found only in 2 Macc…

Not true.

St. Paul here prayed for the dead Onesiforus:

2 Timothy 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Your statement about the kjv supporting all Catholic doctrine was erroneous.

As mentioned, St. Paul prayed for mercy upon Onesiphorus "on that day". Do you need any further proof?

Thanks for the kudos on the blog De Maria!

You're welcome.

heidi said...

de Maria,

You're being pedantic, and refusing to see the truth because it doesn't fit in with your preconceived ideas.

1. It is a fact that Martin Luther demoted the books, he did not remove them. EVEN IF YOU WILL IT SO!!! I think Dr. Pitre has provided sufficient documentation on this subject.

2. If the KJV is not on the "list of approved Bibles for prayer and study" then it is, DE FACTO NOT AN APPROVED CATHOLIC TRANSLATION.

3. Blog commentators are not definitive sources of Catholic teaching (praise be to God).

4. The text of the Bible does not clarify whether Onesiforus was living or dead at the time of Paul's prayer. Scholars debate this and there is no way to definitively know either way. ERGO- THIS can not be used as textual proof for the doctrine of praying for the dead.

5. I will pray that you someday become "fertile ground" because at this point you are denying facts and refusing the truth even though, in charity, it has been literally spelled out for you.
This is hubris.

6. My posts have been exclusively written in charity to clear up some very erroneous notions both you and Susan hold. Like I pointed out, pearls before swine is a waste of time until you become receptive. EVEN IF THE TRUTH CONFLICTS WITH YOUR PERSONAL CONVICTIONS IT IS STILL THE TRUTH.
If you read, rather than loading guns, you will see that I never directed the USCCB statement at your or anyone personally. But now that you know the KJV is not approved, you can happily submit your will and obediently study and pray from a CATHOLIC TRANSLATION.

PAX

De Maria said...

heidi said...
de Maria,

You're being pedantic,


I don't think so. I think I'm being very reasonable.

and refusing to see the truth because it doesn't fit in with your preconceived ideas.

We all have preconceived ideas. The test of preconceived ideas is whether they are true or not.

1. It is a fact that Martin Luther demoted the books, he did not remove them. EVEN IF YOU WILL IT SO!!!

Lol! Show me where I said that he removed them. I said, and I quote,

"2. Luther tried to cast them out of his version of the Bible." See my comment time stamped 3:32AM

I base my opinion on Luther's own words.

“I am so hostile to this book and to Esther that I could wish they did not exist at all; for they judaize too greatly and have much pagan impropriety.” ( Tischedren, I, Weimar Edition, 1912, 208)

He also said:
“The third book of Esdras I throw into the [river] Elbe.”

Therefore, then, I am of the opinion that if he had his own way, he would have cast them out.

I think Dr. Pitre has provided sufficient documentation on this subject.

2. If the KJV is not on the "list of approved Bibles for prayer and study" then it is, DE FACTO NOT AN APPROVED CATHOLIC TRANSLATION.


Did I say it was an approved Catholic Translation?

3. Blog commentators are not definitive sources of Catholic teaching (praise be to God).

1. You have just discounted yourself.
2. The article I linked was supported by a Nihil Obstat, which are only issued by Catholic Bishops if there is nothing against faith or morals in the document.

cont'd

De Maria said...

continued

heidi also said:
4. The text of the Bible does not clarify whether Onesiforus was living or dead at the time of Paul's prayer. Scholars debate this and there is no way to definitively know either way. ERGO- THIS can not be used as textual proof for the doctrine of praying for the dead.

Protestant scholars debate that point. It is pretty well accepted by Catholic Scholars. Note, however, that you are arguing like a Protestant in denying that this verse supports prayer for the dead.

Who is being pedantic now?

However, since you don't like it, how about this? Answer these questions:

Did St. Paul intercede for the dead Eutychus when he raised him from the dead?

Acts 20:8-10King James Version (KJV)

8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.


Did St. Peter intercede for the dead Tabitha when he raised her from the dead?

Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

No one, not even Protestants deny that these two were dead and brought back to life by the intercessory prayers of the Apostles. But, what is your opinion?

5. I will pray that you someday become "fertile ground" because at this point you are denying facts and refusing the truth even though, in charity, it has been literally spelled out for you.
This is hubris.


I am the one providing facts. You are the one denying them.

6. My posts have been exclusively written in charity to clear up some very erroneous notions both you and Susan hold. Like I pointed out, pearls before swine is a waste of time until you become receptive. EVEN IF THE TRUTH CONFLICTS WITH YOUR PERSONAL CONVICTIONS IT IS STILL THE TRUTH.

That sword cuts both ways.

If you read, rather than loading guns, you will see that I never directed the USCCB statement at your or anyone personally. But now that you know the KJV is not approved, you can happily submit your will and obediently study and pray from a CATHOLIC TRANSLATION.

Saying that the KJV is not approved does not mean that reading the KJV is condemned.

PAX

And to you.

Susan Moore said...

First of all, if you guys want to guide me, stop using big words, I don't know what 'pedantic' means.
Secondly, I appreciate that you are siblings, but I can't tell by your comments that you actually are obedient to His will and love one another. :-)

On another note, thank you for your continued references!!
No, I have not read anything of the saints (yet). I have (only) read the Bible. But recently my Latin professor told us about St. Augustine, and I got a book of his writings from the school’s library. Haven’t read it yet, though. Oh, I also have the Catechism, which is very good and helpful.

I have noticed that it is common for Catholics to assume because I am newly back to the Catholic faith-tradition, that I am new to faith in Christ. That is a very incorrect understanding. In heaven our faith-tradition and our faith will be one and the same because our faith will have been perfected and the dross will have been burnt off of our traditions and understandings. But on earth our Catholic faith-tradition is not the same as our faith.

My understanding is that our faith in Christ is deposited in each of us at Baptism by the Holy Spirit, and is complete in form. However, because of the rebellious human nature, it can take various amounts of time for that faith to be perceived and for one’s perceptions of their God-given and internal faith to grow as a person relinquishes their human will to His divine will out of love for Him. A submission that is kindled through a deepening relationship with Him.

I have been through a great deal in my life starting at a very early age.
I have a vivid memory of waiting on Him to rescue me, and then waving my arms in jubilation and toddling to safety when He did. I had been hiding under a standard kitchen table, and was standing straight upright when I toddled away.
Through all my life experience, He has never once left my side. I have a mature faith in Him, the gentle King of the universe. However, I would like to increase my knowledge of the traditions of Catholicism, and that is what I am in graduate school to study.

I have found it helpful to study and re-study how St. Paul approached the gentiles in Acts 17.

He was in Athens and saw the idolatrous statues and engravings offered to the gods of the Athenians. What did he do? Did he quickly leave the city in disgust, or in fear he would be contaminated by their evil ways and cursed by God, then wait at the city gates and call for the Athenians in a language they did not understand, beseeching them to come to him so he could correct them?

No! He studied their carvings and engravings, found a common link between their beliefs and his faith, and at their request he went to the place they requested him to go so that they could most comfortably hear what he had to say, and then he boldly spoke the truth in compassion. He planted seeds of truth and was comfortable leaving it at that. For it is only the Holy Spirit who can enable a seed of truth to grow.

Likewise, We belong to Him and therefore no created thing can take us from His hand: we are in the world but not of the world –He knows this about us better than we do.

Through His greatest commandment He does not say, “Obey me”, He says, “Love me.” Obedience is a consequence of a deepening relationship with the One who is love. Obedience is not a requirement in order to be loved, as if by obeying Him we are giving back to Him what He is owed –for who can owe God?

As our relationship with Him is kindled and flames up, our passion for Him grows as does our submission to His will because we recognize He is the only living being who is faithful and true.

Anonymous said...

@ De Maria

"You may have gotten the wrong idea in our discussion. I don't endorse the KJV."

Thanks for the clarification. I didnt think you did. I was simply stating that its really cool that they offer that...I would still be suprised if it had the rest of the books in it.

Where am I from?
I am from France. I was born in Israel and moved to France when I was three. From 3-13 I lived there, with a two year span in Germany. I moved here to Texas when I was 15. Texas was very different place from Europe: Its laws, its people, its customs. School was a particular challenge but I picked up new English rather well. From there I moved up to Alabama where I attended Spring Hill College. And that is about as exciting as my life has been. Anyhow thank you for your questions, Im sorry about our little fued there, and I am glad we got it resolved (that you prefer other version as well.

God Bless you

De Maria said...

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the clarification. I didnt think you did. I was simply stating that its really cool that they offer that…


"they offer that"? Who? The dollar stores?

"I would still be suprised if it had the rest of the books in it."

I'm no longer surprised what I find at dollar stores.

I am from France. I was born in Israel

Are you a convert from Judaism or Islam? Or were you always in the Church?

and moved to France when I was three. From 3-13 I lived there, with a two year span in Germany. I moved here to Texas when I was 15. Texas was very different place from Europe: Its laws, its people, its customs. School was a particular challenge but I picked up new English rather well. From there I moved up to Alabama where I attended Spring Hill College. And that is about as exciting as my life has been. Anyhow thank you for your questions, Im sorry about our little fued there, and I am glad we got it resolved (that you prefer other version as well.

no problem.

God Bless you

God bless you as well.

Anonymous said...

What you should have asked is: If you have lived here for only two years then how did you have time to move from Texas to Alabama and obtain a college education? You have disappointed me.

De Maria said...

Susan,

Will you join me on my blog? I have responded to you here.

De Maria said...

Anonymous said...
What you should have asked is: If you have lived here for only two years then how did you have time to move from Texas to Alabama and obtain a college education? You have disappointed me.


Sorry to disappoint. But...

Its so simple to obtain a college education today. There are many online colleges and you can obtain your college education from your own living room. But, if you want to tell us your own experience, feel free.

I am, however, more interested in whether you are a convert from Judaism, Islam or a life long Catholic? Of course, you are not obligated to answer that question. Feel free to disregard it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sarah said...

I am a one of a kind born again Catholic, raised right here in the US of A.